Fermentation issues with Lager

Guten Tag!
Alright guys take your fingers off the keyboard and just listen, I know it's tempting. I'm sure you're thinking this is another "NO AIRLOCK MOVEMENT WTF?" thread, but I assure you it isn't. Okay so I brewed a pilsner similar to the "Bittburger" Pilsner. Here's the grain bill if it makes any difference:

9.2# Weyer Pilsner malt
4oz Weyer Dark munich malt
4oz Carapils dextrine malt 20L

I got the beer down to around 70F and pitched a starter that I made earlier in the day (5 hours). I figured that this beer isn't too high of gravity (Est SG ~1.052 Actual SG: 1.040, yielded 6gal in fermenter so I should have hit it right on), so I didn't think I would need to let the starter fully run it's course. Anyways, so I pitched the yeast and did my usual "Rock the baby" technique to airate. Oh and by the way I started the beer off in my kegerator @48F, as per the recipe suggests (recipe comes from the book "Clone Brews"). After 24hrs of no visible signs of fermentation, I decide to pitch another package of the same yeast, this time with no starter whatsoever. It has now been three days and the gravity has still not moved. I went on Wyeast's website and their suggested range of fermentation is 50-58F. I now turned my kegerator up and we're sitting at around 56F. I used Wyeast's 2278 "Czech pils".
So after writing this, i'm starting to realize how many things I should have done differently: I should have airated with oxygen, which I still don't have a set-up for. I should have made the starter a day in advance to double the culture. I should have followed the manufacturer's fermentation range. So the question is, am I screwed? Could there be any other reason my wort isn't fermenting? I used the 5.2ph correcter during mash, and also used brita filtered water from the tap. I live in Dallas if that means anything of importance, and I have brewed many batches this same exact way (except for Lagers, this is my second lager) for the past year while living here and they have turned out tremendous. This is my first real issue with fermentation and need some guidance! Help would be greatly appreciated. RDWHAH?
-Moer

Starting a starter 5 hours before brewing isn't really a starter.

For most lagers, you need at least a 6-8 liter starter, made in advance and decanted. I usually start about a week before brewday for lagers.

But since you have 6 gallons of 1.040 wort, you may be ok with less yeast than typically needed. Two packages should be enough to get started (although still not optimal), so patience may be the only thing required at this point.

You already know what to do for next time, it sounds like! Pitching far more yeast than you think you need is a big start, as well as aerating the wort more. If you don't want to invest in 02, you can buy a really cool "wine whip" that attaches on your drill and works great in "ale pails" or an aquarium aerator, or even some serious splashing/pouring.

Consult mrmalty.com's "yeast pitching calculator" to get an idea of the correct pitching rate for your lager- I think you'll be surprised!

I usually cool my wort to under fermentation temperature (usually I try for 45-46 degrees) and get my yeast starter out of the fridge. I pour off the spent wort, and pitch the yeast when the yeast is around 44 degrees into 46 degree wort, and let it rise to 50 degrees for fermentation. It works great!

What gravity do you make your starter? 1.030? So you're saying that I should just let it go and you think it'll ferment? Thanks for the feedback!

I'm not trying to thread-jack, but I saw this thread and as I'm about to try my first lager, I figured I would jump in here and ask for advice. The recipe (an all grain Rolling Rock clone if you can believe it) calls for WLP840. My LBHS suggested a 12 hour starter (and gave me some instructions which I've misplaced at the moment). I asked about pitching, since I've only done ales thus far, and was told that I could pitch at 67-68 degrees F (as usual), and that I should reduce the fermentation temperature by two degrees per day until the optimal fermentation temperature is reached (in the case of WLP840, 50-50 degrees F).

Is this advice sound or should I be doing something else?

Yes, I know Rolling Rock sucks but hey, I wanna try this and then will re-use the yeast for something decent.

copyright1997 said:

I'm not trying to thread-jack, but I saw this thread and as I'm about to try my first lager, I figured I would jump in here and ask for advice. The recipe (an all grain Rolling Rock clone if you can believe it) calls for WLP840. My LBHS suggested a 12 hour starter (and gave me some instructions which I've misplaced at the moment). I asked about pitching, since I've only done ales thus far, and was told that I could pitch at 67-68 degrees F (as usual), and that I should reduce the fermentation temperature by two degrees per day until the optimal fermentation temperature is reached (in the case of WLP840, 50-50 degrees F).

Is this advice sound or should I be doing something else?

Yes, I know Rolling Rock sucks but hey, I wanna try this and then will re-use the yeast for something decent.

Click to expand...

If you pitch at 67-68 degrees fermentation will be done long before you get down to proper lager fermentation temps (50 degrees or less in most cases).

The best advice I can give new lager brewers: pitch LOTS of yeast (two 11.5 gram packages of dry yeast rehydrated as per manufacturer's instructions; OR follow Mr. Malty's pitching rate calculations for liquid yeast) at fermentation temperatures. As Yooper noted above, you need huge starters for lagers--I've never made an 8 litre starter like her, but when I use liquid the starter can easily be a gallon or more. You don't want to pitch that much oxydized beer into a 5 gallon batch, so let it ferment out fully, then decant and pitch.

Really, for your first few lagers pick a dry yeast (I recommend Saflager W-34/70), pitch two packs and you know you've got enough yeast. Until you get your lager process right using liquid can be troublesome, especially if you don't know what you're doing in terms of a starter (like this thread's OP, no offense intended) or are getting bad advice.

Moerdertaktiken said:

What gravity do you make your starter? 1.030? So you're saying that I should just let it go and you think it'll ferment? Thanks for the feedback!

Click to expand...

Yes, I think it'll ferment. Most of my starters are 1.038-1.040. Next time will be a bit easier, as you'll have more lager experience. They aren't "hard" at all, but definitely more finicky and they require more coddling!

copyright1997 said:

I'm not trying to thread-jack, but I saw this thread and as I'm about to try my first lager, I figured I would jump in here and ask for advice. The recipe (an all grain Rolling Rock clone if you can believe it) calls for WLP840. My LBHS suggested a 12 hour starter (and gave me some instructions which I've misplaced at the moment). I asked about pitching, since I've only done ales thus far, and was told that I could pitch at 67-68 degrees F (as usual), and that I should reduce the fermentation temperature by two degrees per day until the optimal fermentation temperature is reached (in the case of WLP840, 50-50 degrees F).

Is this advice sound or should I be doing something else?

Yes, I know Rolling Rock sucks but hey, I wanna try this and then will re-use the yeast for something decent.

Click to expand...

Make your starter one week in advance. Use 1/2 cup DME per 2 cups water, but depending on the OG of the planned beer, you may want to multiply those amounts by 6! Consult this website for the amount of yeast you need: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

You don't want to pitch at 67 degrees, and reduce the temperature 2 degrees per day! Here's why: If signs of fermentation start at 67 degrees, and you reduce the temperature 2 degrees per day until you're at 50 degrees, fermentation will be completely over before you even get to the correct temperature! Would you pitch your ale 17 degrees too warm, and then slloowwlly reduce it to the correct temperature? Of course not- you'd have a bad ale, and for a lager you'd have an estery beer that won't be anything lagerlike!

Even White Lab's own website suggests making a starter with lagers if you're pitching at the correct temperature. The benefits of pitching at a lower temperature include lowered diacetyl amounts, less esters and a "cleaner" lager finish. The only advantage to pitching warm is to compensate for underpitching. If you make the correct sized starter, and pitch the correct amount of yeast, then pitching at the ideal fermentation works perfectly.

I've read about pitching rates before, but as far as any ale i've ever brewed, i've never really put that much thought into a starter. My ales have always been chugging away within the first 8-12 hours. I consider this a good lesson and i'll definetly learn from this!

Moerdertaktiken said:

I've read about pitching rates before, but as far as any ale i've ever brewed, i've never really put that much thought into a starter. My ales have always been chugging away within the first 8-12 hours. I consider this a good lesson and i'll definetly learn from this!

Click to expand...

Yes, ales are pretty forgiving and it's great for homebrewers (like me) who are pretty relaxed. Lagers aren't technically any more difficult, if you have temperature control, but pitching rates, aeration, specific temperatures, lagering, diacetyl rest, etc, all are crucial and it takes a bit more attention to detail.

I like to make a couple of lagers a year, but it's a good thing that my preference for everyday beers are ales anyway!

I like to make a couple of lagers per month...9 since April 23rd this year.

Edit: Actually 10; I forgot about the traditional bock I made last weekend. Hochkurz double decoction. Took a gravity reading today; it's nearly ready for d-rest. Stole a taste; super-malty as one might expect!

osagedr said:

If you pitch at 67-68 degrees fermentation will be done long before you get down to proper lager fermentation temps (50 degrees or less in most cases).

Really, for your first few lagers pick a dry yeast (I recommend Saflager W-34/70), pitch two packs and you know you've got enough yeast. Until you get your lager process right using liquid can be troublesome, especially if you don't know what you're doing in terms of a starter (like this thread's OP, no offense intended) or are getting bad advice.

Click to expand...

Yooper said:

Make your starter one week in advance. Use 1/2 cup DME per 2 cups water, but depending on the OG of the planned beer, you may want to multiply those amounts by 6! Consult this website for the amount of yeast you need: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

You don't want to pitch at 67 degrees, and reduce the temperature 2 degrees per day! Here's why: If signs of fermentation start at 67 degrees, and you reduce the temperature 2 degrees per day until you're at 50 degrees, fermentation will be completely over before you even get to the correct temperature!

Click to expand...

Thanks to both of you. One of my problems is knowing in advance what day I will really have enough continuous hours available for brewing. So far, I've been only using dry yeasts (US-05, US-04) which has been easy (i.e. I'm lazy), so I would tend to go the dry route. Let's say that MrMalty says I need two dry yeast packets. Does that mean I can just pitch them or do I need to rehydrate them first? (Sorry if this is a dumb question, so far everything I've done has worked fine in terms of fermentation by just pitching the yeast into the wort without rehydration.)

If I go the other way (use the 840 as I've already bought it and do a one week starter), can I just do the starter as if I were doing a beer, i.e. follow the instructions Yooper outlines and keep it in a (smaller) primary? Do I need to make it one week or can it be more? Do I have to "feed it" additional wort (sugar)? Sorry for being dense, maybe give a pointer to what I should be reading before I try this? Thanks!

[I will definitely take your advice and NOT pitch at Ale temp, but instead get the wort first to/under the proper fermentation temperature!]

If it's dry yeast you should follow the manufacturer's instructions with respect to rehydrating. You want to look at the product sheet on the manufacturer's website, not just look at the instructions on the package. I have only used Fermentis dry lager yeasts so far and the instructions call for rehydration if you are pitching cool; you can just sprinkle if you are pitching at 20 degrees celcius (68 F) or above then cooling to fermentation temperatures (e.g. http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Saflager_W-3470_HB.pdf)

Yes, you are okay to do your starter more than a week ahead of time, then once it's fermented out leave it in the fridge, then when you are ready to pitch decant (dump the clear beer off the top) and pitch (just the yeast slurry at the bottom).

You can ferment your lager starter at room temperature, especially if you are stuck for time. But my preference is to do it at fermentation temperature--it just takes longer.

Once you do your first lager with a yeast strain you like, it's easy to keep going by re-using your slurry. This is one of the reasons to employ one of the workhorse dry lager strains, then just repitch again and again. If your schedule gets interrupted you can always rinse your yeast (some people here call it "washing", but really it's just rinsing; see the sticky for instructions). Then you just treat your rinsed yeast like a starter. I also wouldn't hesitate to use slurry that has been stored under good conditions for a week or two. My slurry is usually very clean as I am very careful when racking from the kettle to the fermenter.

My lager I usually keep it in the ale range until I see fermentation has kicked off then slowly lower to 48-52 for 3-4 weeks raise to room temp for 3days, rack into glass carboy and crank the fridge to 32<x<40 for a month or 2, save my yeast and wash it, reproduce it and pitch it for bottling when ready

Alright so everything is fine and dandy now. The beer has successfully begun fermentation!