What should I do with my Berliner?

(Sorry in advance for a long read)

So, I recently did my 3rd no-boil Berliner Weisse. The first two times I've done it, I've had success with the level of sourness I've achieved, even though I don’t have a way to keep the lacto at its favored temp range (90-110 degrees F). This is what I did for my latest batch:

6 gallon batch
4lbs Weyermann Wheat
4lbs Weyermann Pilsner
7oz Acidulated Malt
1oz Hersbrucker Hops (2.5% AA, added to the mash)
CaCl to ~40ppm Ca
White Labs Lacto Starter + Wyeast 1007 German Ale Yeast

I did a three step mash. Infusions to 122 and 133, then pulled a decoction to get the temp up to 149. Mashout at 168.

I collected the wort, and put it directly in an ice bath until it got down to ~90 degrees. Then, I pitched the Lacto (1/2 gallon apple juice starter, then stepped up into a 2000ml 1.035OG DME starter). I gave the Lacto 36 hours before I pitched the German Ale yeast.

With this method, you are supposed to bottle within 7-10 days, and let it condition for a while. I went to pull a sample before I bottled it last night, and there was no sourness whatsoever. There were no off-flavors that I detected, which was good, but I expected at least some level of tartness.

The first time I did the no boil, I used Wyeast Lacto without a starter, and gave it a 36 hour head start. The sourness and appearance was great…unfortunately, the beer sucked. This is before I knew (at least a little) water chemistry, and my water is terrible to use for pale beers.

The second time, I again used Wyeast without a starter, and gave it the head start. I used a different water source, and the sourness was there, but not as much as my first attempt. The beer as a whole was much better, and scored a 42 in competition.

So this time – the 3rd time – here is what I have done differently: 1) I used White Labs instead of Wyeast. 2) I made a big starter. 3) I treated my water, and 4) I used acid malt. In all three versions, the Lacto produced a nice white krausen when I pitched it. Also, all 3 versions have finished around 1.006 FG.

Can anyone think of a reason why this Berliner did not get sour? Water treatment? White Labs vs Wyeast issues?

I was thinking about letting it go for a couple more weeks. If it develops some sourness, I’ll bottle. If not, I’ll add some Brett L to the mix, let it “funkify” for a few months, then add a touch of lactic acid at bottling if it still isn’t sour enough.

What would you do?

(Thanks for reading my novel!)

Dump it, Clint. Just dump it.

Haha we'll see.

Did you pitch Sacch at the same time or give the Lacto a head start?

I gave the Lacto a head start each time I have brewed.

This time it was a 36 hour head start.

Clint04 said:

So this time – the 3rd time – here is what I have done differently: 1) I used White Labs instead of Wyeast. 2) I made a big starter. 3) I treated my water, and 4) I used acid malt.

Click to expand...

Clint04 said:

Can anyone think of a reason why this Berliner did not get sour?

Click to expand...

From everything I have read, both the Wyeast and White Labs Lacto also have sacc, about 10%. The idea is that the Lacto is in the majority and sours the beer before the sacc builds up enough cells to start making alcohol which then slows down the Lacto. You may not have needed the extra sacc.

In making a starter you built up the sacc in preference to the Lacto, and when you pitched, the sacc was a much greater percentage of the cells, that it started a lot quicker, reducing the amount of souring done by the lacto.

Interesting. I had never heard that before. I know you shouldn't make starters of sour blends, but it seems like a lot of people make big lacto starters for Berliners.

If White Labs Lacto does have a touch of sacch in it, your explanation makes total sense.

I might give it a few weeks, and if no sourness begins to develop, I will dump Brett L in it and maybe spike it with a touch of lactic acid.

Calder said:

From everything I have read, both the Wyeast and White Labs Lacto also have sacc, about 10%. The idea is that the Lacto is in the majority and sours the beer before the sacc builds up enough cells to start making alcohol which then slows down the Lacto. You may not have needed the extra sacc.

In making a starter you built up the sacc in preference to the Lacto, and when you pitched, the sacc was a much greater percentage of the cells, that it started a lot quicker, reducing the amount of souring done by the lacto.

Click to expand...

I have read the opposite. This seems to be a often repeated thing since I've read people claiming that both Wyeast and White Labs lacto contains yeast. This myth can be debunked now. I thought the same thing. I suspect it might stem from the confusion over the blends vs the individual strain packages (like lambic blend vs. pure brett).

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/06/100-lactobacillus-berliner-weisse.html?showComment=1348665589495#c834489329260366185

At least the white labs version does NOT contain yeast for sure. I can't imagine why the Wyeast version would be different since it is sold as a specific bacterial species in the 5335 version.

Here is an update (in case anyone cares):

This was a 6 gallon batch, 5 gallons of which I added Wyeast 3191 to, and the other gallon got Fantome Dregs. I let both of these sit for an additional 2 months.

I loved the basement funk that the Fantome Dregs added to the one gallon portion, so I blended that into the other 5 gallons when I bottled. The Berliner gained some more sourness, but still not quite as much as I wanted. I added 1.75oz of Lactic Acid to the batch, which helped enough.

Right now it tastes pretty awesome! Nice sourness with a subtle basement funk from the Brett.

I will certainly be avoiding White Labs Lacto in the future though...

Calder said:

From everything I have read, both the Wyeast and White Labs Lacto also have sacc, about 10%.

Click to expand...

No