My First batch of cider

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muse435

muse435

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I want to try my hand at cider and think I am ready to do it. I want to make a sparkling sweet cider, to make it sparkle I am planning on kegging. I do not want to have to back sweeten so I would like to be able to use a yeast that will not ferment the cider too dry.

From what I understand of making cider I plan on adding three gallons of stor bought apple juice, yeast and slap an airlock on it. After fermentation is over transfer into my keg, let sit for a little while, carb, then enjoy.

If I am missing anything please help me out. I am still looking at different threads and websites but will hopefully be starting this weekend. If anyone knows off a good yeast to use I'm all ears. Now I'm off to search for yeast:)
 
there is a funny idea bouncing around on some of these discussions that yeast labeled as good up to 8% will dutifully ferment delicious cider until there is 8% alcohol and then bow out politely and sink to the bottom, the reality is that they always (in my experience) go much higher than the label suggests. furthermore, do you want your cider fermented by yeast that are being stressed and poisoned just at their tolerance? i don't know from experience what flavors stressed yeast give to cider and i don't want to find out. do yourself a favor, control the alcohol level by the amount of sugar available at the onset, then stabilize your dry cider and sweeten with the original unfermented juice. you are kegging so it is super easy, just my opinion
 
I just got home from my LHBS and grocery store. I got a 3 gal BB and two 1 gal jugs, 3 gal White House apple juice, 1 gal organic apple juice, 1 qt. cranberry juice, 1 pack Red Star Pasture Champagne and 1 pack Safale s-04.

I'm planning on adding just shy of three gallons of the WH apple juice and the Safale to my BB, and combining 3 qts of the organic apple juice and 1 qt of cranberry juice with 1/2 the pack of the red star yeast.

These will be my first two tries at hard cider, am I missing anything or am I good to go.

And just to go over my procedure:

1. Sanitize all equipment
2. add juice
3. pitch yeast directly (dry)
4. add airlock
5. hurry up and wait

How much of an air gap do I need for the primary fermentation? I know I need ~1 gal head space when making 5 gal beer, is it the same ratio for cider?
 
Cider doesn't need much head space, it doesn't produce krausen like beer does. If you wanted to add some pectic enzyme to the juice about an hour before you add the yeast, it will help the cider be clear (less hazy), if that matters to you.

Muse, have you had an opportunity to take a look through http://www.makinghardcider.com/? For first time cider makers, I think its a great resource.

Cheers!
 
Yeah i read through it quickly, I am hoping to go back and read it more thoroughly. I have house guest coming so SWMBO said I have to wait any way. I decided to make a small 1. gal batch in the meen time. I have too much head space but what is done is done. I also forgot to take the OG in my haste. If nothing else I will see what my process yields, worst case only a gal down the drain. Cheers and thanks for the help.
 
Pappers_ said:
^^^^ What he said. It will ferment dry. Stabilize, backsweeten, then force carb. Good luck!
Click to expand...

+1, easiest way with force carb because you will stop any further fermentation from eating the sugar and still have it sparkling with co2. very easy, just havn't bought myself to buy 5 gallons of apple juice yet...:drunk:
 
dinnerstick said:
there is a funny idea bouncing around on some of these discussions that yeast labeled as good up to 8% will dutifully ferment delicious cider until there is 8% alcohol and then bow out politely and sink to the bottom, the reality is that they always (in my experience) go much higher than the label suggests. furthermore, do you want your cider fermented by yeast that are being stressed and poisoned just at their tolerance? i don't know from experience what flavors stressed yeast give to cider and i don't want to find out. do yourself a favor, control the alcohol level by the amount of sugar available at the onset, then stabilize your dry cider and sweeten with the original unfermented juice. you are kegging so it is super easy, just my opinion
Click to expand...

So once the cider ferments out naturally, cold crash, transfer to keg, add unfermented apple juice to the keg, carb enjoy. right?

What ratio of apple juice to hard cider would you recommend, I am looking for a little sweet but not too much.
 
muse435 said:
Has any one tried xylitol, does it taste natural or does it taste fake like splenda?
Click to expand...

It's not bad, but I did the same thing - looked for a non-fermentable sugar for backsweetening to make the whole thing easier, and to be honest it's much better to learn the cold crash or pasteurization process, because it leaves you so much more open to different flavors and ideas, rather than buying an expensive sugar every time you brew. Cider is simple, so taking the time to do one or the other isn't a big issue - don't be afraid, try it!
 
RobWalker said:
it's much better to learn the cold crash or pasteurization process
Click to expand...

Ok, I currently have a two different ciders fermenting in three different jugs/carboys and hope to have a third by tomorrow. I am trying out different types of yeasts, sweet vs. dry, and sparkling vs. still. Both of my kegs are full so I don't know if i will be able to make sparkling b/c i don't want to attempt bottle conditioning them.

My plan is to let them all ferment out completely, and then go from there.
For still dry cider no extra steps.
For still sweet cider i think I am supposed to cold crash, stabilize, then back sweeten.
And I'll worry about sparkling cider if I have an empty keg at the time.

My question to every one is how to do this (stabilize, then back sweeten.)?

I have read that I can add
 
you can add, hopefully. next up is multiplication
the most common way is to rack off lees, after cold crashing is even better, and add potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite (k-meta/campden). a good starting point:

for 5L
1/2 tsp sorbate (looks like sprinkles), 1/10 tsp (0.6g) k-meta, or 1 campden tablet

if you love irrational measurements:
for 5 gallons
2.5 tsp sorbate,
1/2 tsp k-meta

back sweetening can only really be done by taste. if you only want it a little sweet you can add clear juice, bearing in mind you are diluting the alcohol %. for minimal dilution you can add concentrate (which doesn't exist in europe, damn it) or dissolve sugar in a small amount of water by boiling quickly. rack to a clean carboy/bucket and add the sweetener slowly, stir well and taste often. when you get it how you like it record the gravity for later reference. add the k-meta/sorbate, and here it is wise to leave it in the carboy for a week to make sure fermentation does not kick off again. if gravity stays the same then you're good to bottle
 
dinnerstick said:
you can add, hopefully. next up is multiplication
the most common way is to rack off lees, after cold crashing is even better, and add potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite (k-meta/campden). a good starting point:

for 5L
1/2 tsp sorbate (looks like sprinkles), 1/10 tsp (0.6g) k-meta, or 1 campden tablet

if you love irrational measurements:
for 5 gallons
2.5 tsp sorbate,
1/2 tsp k-meta

back sweetening can only really be done by taste. if you only want it a little sweet you can add clear juice, bearing in mind you are diluting the alcohol %. for minimal dilution you can add concentrate (which doesn't exist in europe, damn it) or dissolve sugar in a small amount of water by boiling quickly. rack to a clean carboy/bucket and add the sweetener slowly, stir well and taste often. when you get it how you like it record the gravity for later reference. add the k-meta/sorbate, and here it is wise to leave it in the carboy for a week to make sure fermentation does not kick off again. if gravity stays the same then you're good to bottle
Click to expand...

so you recommend adding the stabilizers right after sweetening?
 
dinnerstick said:
for minimal dilution you can add concentrate (which doesn't exist in europe, damn it)
Click to expand...

Have you tried buying a cider kit if you're a cider regular? That's apple concentrate and if you can store it somewhere airtight/sterilized i'm sure you'll be fine...I'd imagine a whole kits worth will last quite a long time!
 
yeah, i have no experience with cider kits but last time at the brew shop i bought a 'magnum' cider kit with exactly what you suggest in mind. it is sitting on my shelf doing its best to organize the dust within its vicinity, it's aj concentrate, diammonium phosphate (yeast nutrient), k-meta, glucose, citric and malic acids. at some point i'll open the tin and see what it actually tastes like, and although i remain skeptical, there's nothing too weird in there, don't know what the diammonium po4 will taste like after fermentation, and then freeze it in small quantities. curious if anyone has ever used a cider kit for this purpose. i don't generally backsweeten but every here and there i like to, like for this year's cheapo cherry cider which is a 1-2 punch of malic acid and sweet cherry and is delicious but could go one notch higher maybe with some apple concentrate at the end
 
muse435 said:
So once the cider ferments out naturally, cold crash, transfer to keg, add unfermented apple juice to the keg, carb enjoy. right?

What ratio of apple juice to hard cider would you recommend, I am looking for a little sweet but not too much.
Click to expand...

I would let ferment dry, then:
1. cold crash (to 50F or less if possible for 24-48 hours)
2. Rack it into a bottling bucket with sorbate.
3. add your sugar choice, plain sugar - frozen apple juice concentrate, AJ etc. Use your hydrometer to take a gravity reading (1.010-1.024 for dry to sweet (woodchuck is 1.024)) - adjust for temp if necessary s/b 68F
4. Once you have your sugar set, add your camden to your keg (crushed) and rack your cider from the bottling bucket to your keg.

Purge and force carb.


For my ciders I give them a bit more head space to start, then once they have fermented for a while I top off with more juice. I rack them at about 4-6 weeks and then don't touch them for at least another 2-3 months. They fall clear in that time, and ferment out dry and the yeast comp[acts and falls out of suspension. The cider also improves dramatically.


For my draft ciders the wife likes them a little sweet so I go to 1.024. If I have fresh pressed cider I back sweeten with that. If not, I use frozen AJ concentrate. They come out very solid and a very good draft cider.
 
Thanks for all of the great info, I keep changing my mind what I want to do, but I have plenty of time before I have to decide. Most likely I will sweeten and carb some in 2 lt pop bottles, and leave the rest still.

I have stopped using a secondary for beer but is it recommended when making cider or does the principle apply?
 
muse435 said:
Thanks for all of the great info, I keep changing my mind what I want to do, but I have plenty of time before I have to decide. Most likely I will sweeten and carb some in 2 lt pop bottles, and leave the rest still.

I have stopped using a secondary for beer but is it recommended when making cider or does the principle apply?
Click to expand...

if you do a long term secondary yes.

For beer you typically don't let it hang out for 6-8months. With wines (ciders) you do.

I still have some cider from last year in bulk fermenters. You want to get it off most of the lees for bulk aging.
 
dinnerstick said:
yeah, i have no experience with cider kits but last time at the brew shop i bought a 'magnum' cider kit with exactly what you suggest in mind. it is sitting on my shelf doing its best to organize the dust within its vicinity, it's aj concentrate, diammonium phosphate (yeast nutrient), k-meta, glucose, citric and malic acids. at some point i'll open the tin and see what it actually tastes like, and although i remain skeptical, there's nothing too weird in there, don't know what the diammonium po4 will taste like after fermentation, and then freeze it in small quantities. curious if anyone has ever used a cider kit for this purpose. i don't generally backsweeten but every here and there i like to, like for this year's cheapo cherry cider which is a 1-2 punch of malic acid and sweet cherry and is delicious but could go one notch higher maybe with some apple concentrate at the end
Click to expand...

I've tasted it - just tastes like really sweet, thick apple juice. :)

I havn't used one for this, but I might be very soon - devising a little experiment to make a few batches of cider using one of these kits I have spare (maybe 3 gal in 1 gal batches) - hopefully just going to dilute the juice until the gravity lies at 1.050ish (the gravity of store-bought stuff,) then either just ferment them out or add an ingredient or two to each. the yeast nutrient is worrying though, could send the yeast into overdrive if you add it late and maybe cause fast carbonation...
 
My most recent thinking is to just get an extra keg and use it to long term secondary (keeping it dry and still in the keg). If I go this rout how long should I leave the cider in the primary? Should I just use the FG remaining constant as in beer, or is there any reason I should leave it in the primary longer than that?
 
muse435 said:
My most recent thinking is to just get an extra keg and use it to long term secondary (keeping it dry and still in the keg). If I go this rout how long should I leave the cider in the primary? Should I just use the FG remaining constant as in beer, or is there any reason I should leave it in the primary longer than that?
Click to expand...

A keg would work great, so would any carboy or similar under air lock. When you rack, top off with water or juice depending on what you have so you reduce the air space.

Basically I wait for the ferment to slow down some, so when I rack it, there is still plenty of yeast still in suspension and the ferment will drive off oxidation from the head space. Once racked I add sulfite on any 3 racking (if it happens) and bottling.

so:
1. Primary fermenter (4-6 weeks then rack)
2. Secondary fermenter until it falls crystal clear (at a minimum; I do no less than 3 months up to 1 year)
3. If I have a tond of extra lees I may rack it after 3 months to a bulk conditioner. Add camden at this racking.
4. Camden addition at bottling.

I usually ferment on the lower end, depending on the type of yeast. Yout gravity will be 1.000 or .0998 to finish.
 
muse435 said:
I have never done a long term bulk age before, how much lees is considered "extra lees"
Click to expand...

I would say enough of the lees are knocked out of it after 4-6 weeks (I just wait for the air lock to slow). If you rack off teh ferment will continue in your secondary vessel, and kick off more lees, and those lees will compact (it is ok to bulk age on those unless you want to rack again in a month). I prefer to rack my cider twice. Once into the secondary bulk ager, second into bottles.
 
The cider sat in the primary for 4 weeks, racked, then sat 6 weeks in a secondary, so here I am.

I would like to transfer out of my glass carboy and into a keg to free up the carboy. If it is to soon to transfer then I will wait, but if it is all the same it would be more convenient to me to have the cider in keg. The Cider is looking very clear. My plan will be to cold crash the cider then rack to the keg. So here are my actual questions:

1) will it be detrimental to rack to the keg (10 weeks after brew date) and allow it to continue to age in the keg?

2) Since I want this to be a sweet cider should I add the sorbate and campden tablet now, or should I wait.

3) If I add the campden and sorbate, how long until I should add the apple concentrate to help sweeten.
 
CidahMastah said:
For my draft ciders the wife likes them a little sweet so I go to 1.024. If I have fresh pressed cider I back sweeten with that. If not, I use frozen AJ concentrate. They come out very solid and a very good draft cider.
Click to expand...

My batch is 3 gal. how much fresh cider do you use, and do you do anything to the fresh cider before you add it to the keg?
 
muse435 said:
The cider sat in the primary for 4 weeks, racked, then sat 6 weeks in a secondary, so here I am.

I would like to transfer out of my glass carboy and into a keg to free up the carboy. If it is to soon to transfer then I will wait, but if it is all the same it would be more convenient to me to have the cider in keg. The Cider is looking very clear. My plan will be to cold crash the cider then rack to the keg. So here are my actual questions:

1) will it be detrimental to rack to the keg (10 weeks after brew date) and allow it to continue to age in the keg?

2) Since I want this to be a sweet cider should I add the sorbate and campden tablet now, or should I wait.

3) If I add the campden and sorbate, how long until I should add the apple concentrate to help sweeten.
Click to expand...

1. no - racking it is ok, if you plan on letting it age (recommended) I would crush 3 cambden tablets for three gallons and dump them to your keg, then rack the cider onto the cambden. You can let it sit like that (provided you purge the keg with co2) for as long as you want. I wouldn't use the cider until it is 3 months old at a minimum. I would try to hold out until it is 6 months old for draft, but you coudl probably do it at 4 months and be ok (tast the cider and see where it stands - report back what you taste and I can help.)


2. if you want to add your sweetening stuff now you can, though I would taste your cider and based on how it tastes make your decision on whether to make it draft. When you rack off, no need to add sorbate unless you are sweetening now. See above for the sulphite addition info.

3. Don't add sorbate until you add your sweetener.

when the time comes:
1. 1/4 tsp rounded per gallon into a bottling bucket.
2. rack cider into bottling bucket
3. add sweetener until you get to teh level you want 1.012-1.026 for dry to sweet.
4. taste cider and ask yourself if it is insipid, if yes add some malic acid, is it acidic? add some water. Go slow with those additions, a little goes a long way.
5. Now the that the cider is all set, crush 3 cabden tablets and dump into your keg.
6. rack from bottling bucket to keg and force carbonate
 
If I were you I would pour off a little cider to create head space (so the boittle doesn't explode when you freeze).

To make cider sweetener for draft cider I take frozen fresh pressed cider and:
1. let it thaw about half way
2. pour off and leave the ice half behind.

Now you have extra sweet concentrated cider. this works much better for sweetening because you don't water down your draft cider.

The how much question is only answered by your taste. Typically I need about 1.5 gallons or so of the double sweet frozen cider for a 5G keg of cider. This varies depending on how sweet I want it, and how sweet the sweetened cider actually is.

Use your hydrometer and keep in mind that you want to make the cider a little bit sweeter than you really want it. When carbonated, it will pick up a little acidity from the co2. so if you make it a tad sweet, it will be perfect. At least that is my experience with it. I have made a ton of this draft cider like this.
 
One more thing. After you rack the cider onto cambden and carb, it will taste funky. This is why you add cambden last. Don't worry, the flavor will fully dissipate in a few days and as you pull off your first few pints.

Enjoy!
 
CidahMastah said:
1. no - racking it is ok, if you plan on letting it age (recommended) I would crush 3 cambden tablets for three gallons and dump them to your keg, then rack the cider onto the cambden. You can let it sit like that (provided you purge the keg with co2) for as long as you want. I wouldn't use the cider until it is 3 months old at a minimum. I would try to hold out until it is 6 months old for draft, but you coudl probably do it at 4 months and be ok (tast the cider and see where it stands - report back what you taste and I can help.)


2. if you want to add your sweetening stuff now you can, though I would taste your cider and based on how it tastes make your decision on whether to make it draft. When you rack off, no need to add sorbate unless you are sweetening now. See above for the sulphite addition info.

3. Don't add sorbate until you add your sweetener.

when the time comes:
1. 1/4 tsp rounded per gallon into a bottling bucket.
2. rack cider into bottling bucket
3. add sweetener until you get to teh level you want 1.012-1.026 for dry to sweet.
4. taste cider and ask yourself if it is insipid, if yes add some malic acid, is it acidic? add some water. Go slow with those additions, a little goes a long way.
5. Now the that the cider is all set, crush 3 cabden tablets and dump into your keg.
6. rack from bottling bucket to keg and force carbonate
Click to expand...

So what I am taking from this is:

Rack fermenting cider from carboy on top of 3 crushed campdon tabs in the keg. Purge keg with CO2 and let sit for a few more months. Then after the cider has aged for a significant time rack to a bottling bucket and sweeten. Then rack back into cleaned keg.

what pressure should I keep the keg at in order to prevent it from leaking?
 
muse435 said:
So what I am taking from this is:

Rack fermenting cider from carboy on top of 3 crushed campdon tabs in the keg. Purge keg with CO2 and let sit for a few more months. Then after the cider has aged for a significant time rack to a bottling bucket and sweeten. Then rack back into cleaned keg.

what pressure should I keep the keg at in order to prevent it from leaking?
Click to expand...

Just hoping for confirmation, I'm still new to apple cider.
 
Campden won't kill it. K-sorbate can but its not guaranteed - i'd say its quite safe after a few months ageing though, and your keg should have a safety release for pressure if it starts up again. I'm not sure if that's what you're trying to do though :p
 
muse:

sorry I thought you were set - I would charge your keg at ~20-30PSI for storage. The rest sounds good.

Sorbate doesn't kill anything, it simply inhibits yeast reproduction,....to a point. i.e. it can be overcome. That is why it is key to cold crash, to minimize or totally exclude any yeast that are present, and inhibit them from repro and eating.
 

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