Extract Kit Bitterness

Hello everybody.

I have done 2 extract kits from Northern Brewer so far. The first kit was an Irish Ale and the second was a Scottish 80 shilling. Both beers are supposed to be malty and not very bitter.

I am encountering a slightly higher bitterness than I expected. I'm not sure if it is due to the hops or the specialty grains. Let me tell you a little bit about my process.

I do partial boils in a 4-5 gallon pot (so the boil is about 3 gallons to start with). The kits came with hop pellets. Because I did not use a hop bag, a lot of the hop sediment made it into the primary fermenter.

I steep the specialty grains by turning on the stove and letting the grains steep in the heating water until it reaches about 160-165 degrees F.

Any idea what could be causing that bitterness or twang that I am finding with my beers? Is it possible that I'd have better luck with another company?

If it is a twang, it could come from the grain handling if you are squeezing it to get every last drop of wort out. The twang would be grain husks/hulls. Or it could be the company using poor ingredients or improper recipe.

I don't typically squeeze the grain bag. Idk if it's a twang or not. The best way I can describe it is that it's a taste that I have gotten only with homebrews. It's not present in any craft brews or microbrews I have had. I have heard that Northern Brewer uses very fresh ingredients, but I don't know about quality.

I've done about a dozen Northern kits and one of my coworkers who is a beer snob raves about it. No twang. My process sounds similar to yours. How controlled are your fermentation temps? What kind of water?

I use filtered tap for my boil and top off with bottled spring as I have very hard water. My basement stays mid 60's through the winter and I have been getting very clean ales lately with Safale dry yeast.

Did you use tap water? Sometimes there is a harsh lingering bitterness when alkaline tap water is used. I'd suggest trying the next batch with distilled water and seeing if that fixes it.

dnslater said:

I've done about a dozen Northern kits and one of my coworkers who is a beer snob raves about it. No twang. My process sounds similar to yours. How controlled are your fermentation temps? What kind of water?

I use filtered tap for my boil and top off with bottled spring as I have very hard water. My basement stays mid 60's through the winter and I have been getting very clean ales lately with Safale dry yeast.

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I boiled and topped off with Deer Park bottled water. I'm not sure if it is actually the "twang" that everyone talks about with extract kits, and it tastes pretty good. It's just not up to the quality of craft brews or anything like that. It's got a unique taste, and it's very drinkable. It's just not extremely interesting.

Fermentation temps - This beer fermented at around 64-66 F

dnslater said:

I've done about a dozen Northern kits and one of my coworkers who is a beer snob raves about it. No twang. My process sounds similar to yours. How controlled are your fermentation temps? What kind of water?

I use filtered tap for my boil and top off with bottled spring as I have very hard water. My basement stays mid 60's through the winter and I have been getting very clean ales lately with Safale dry yeast.

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I boiled and topped off with Deer Park bottled water. I'm not sure if it is actually the "twang" that everyone talks about with extract kits, and it tastes pretty good. It's just not up to the quality of craft brews or anything like that. It's got a unique taste, and it's very drinkable. It's just not extremely interesting.

Fermentation temps - This beer fermented at around 64-66 F


sorry for double post

It's hard to diagnose a flavor without tasting it. You can send the remainder of your batch to me, and I'll let you know how it tastes.

homebeerbrewer said:

It's hard to diagnose a flavor without tasting it. You can send the remainder of your batch to me, and I'll let you know how it tastes.

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Haha. Is it possible that getting hop pellet sediment into primary would cause it to be more bitter though? There's only 1 oz of hops in this beer, so my understanding is that there should barely be any bitterness. I believe they were fuggle hop pellets.

How long has it been since you brewed? You may just be picking up some of the "twanginess" (yep, just made that word up!) of a green extract beer. I made BB's red kit that, at 3 weeks in the bottle had that twang. Two months later, it was full, rich, and really good. It may just need to hang out for awhile and do it's thing in the bottle. Good luck and enjoy!!

9Frogs said:

How long has it been since you brewed? You may just be picking up some of the "twanginess" (yep, just made that word up!) of a green extract beer. I made BB's red kit that, at 3 weeks in the bottle had that twang. Two months later, it was full, rich, and really good. It may just need to hang out for awhile and do it's thing in the bottle. Good luck and enjoy!!

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I think it has been in the bottles for nearly 5-6 weeks at this point. It has a nice clean flavor, but it seems that the rich maltiness that I'd expect in a Scottish 80 shilling just isn't there. When I think of that beer, I think of Belhaven's version, so maybe that's why. I can taste a little bit of hops, a bready character, and a mild malt backbone. I guess it's not as bold of a beer as I expected. Also, I carb'd it with 5 oz of priming sugar that came with the kit. Is it possible that some of the 'bite' is coming from carbonation?

I too was wondering the same things that arringtonbp is. Is it just the extract batches that have that twang'y aftertaste? Is that just a characteristic of extract Beer?

unionrdr said:

No,it's the characteristic of an improperly processed extract brew. It's def the process,not the brew. Also,5oz of priming sugar is def way too much for an English bitter. They're tipically low carbonation. Check out tastybrew.com's priming calculator to see what I mean. Malty beers need low carbonation to carry that flavor. Higher carbonation carries hop character.

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Hmm, that's interesting. Sounds like I doing something wrong for sure. Maybe following the instructions on the 5oz of priming Sugar is a bad thing.

Other than that, I make sure I follow the instructions to a T. Temps and the like.

It's not that the Beer is bad, The extract batches that I have done have been good IMO. It's just that twang at the end I'd like to clean up.

unionrdr said:

No,it's the characteristic of an improperly processed extract brew. It's def the process,not the brew. Also,5oz of priming sugar is def way too much for an English bitter. They're tipically low carbonation. Check out tastybrew.com's priming calculator to see what I mean. Malty beers need low carbonation to carry that flavor. Higher carbonation carries hop character.

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That makes sense. I tried the beer before it was carb'd up and it was quite sweet. Only as the carbonation came through did the beer become a little bit bitter, cleaner, and less interesting.

unionrdr said:

No,it's the characteristic of an improperly processed extract brew. It's def the process,not the brew. Also,5oz of priming sugar is def way too much for an English bitter. They're tipically low carbonation. Check out tastybrew.com's priming calculator to see what I mean. Malty beers need low carbonation to carry that flavor. Higher carbonation carries hop character.

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Also, that calculator recommends .4 oz of priming sugar. That cannot be right, can it? Do they mean .4 oz per gallon?

arringtonbp said:

Also, that calculator recommends .4 oz of priming sugar. That cannot be right, can it? Do they mean .4 oz per gallon?

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Yeah, I looked up some of the beers that I have done in the past on the link suggested tastybrew.com and some of the amounts are WAY lower than what the extract kit came with and instructs you to use.

1.8oz from the link and you have 5oz from the kit that it states to use.

Could that be the issue?

arringtonbp said:

Also, that calculator recommends .4 oz of priming sugar. That cannot be right, can it? Do they mean .4 oz per gallon?

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I like my beers carbed. To carb an English beer "to style" using those calculators means that the beer is almost flat. If you like at the carb level, it might even be 1.6 or 1.8 volumes of co2.

That's good in a real cask ale, but not in my bottled beer. If you don't want a good carb level, and want to go lower that's fine. But I would use 4 ounces of priming sugar in 5 gallons for many beers. I like my beers to be carbed.

unionrdr said:

No,it's the characteristic of an improperly processed extract brew. It's def the process,not the brew. .

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Not necessarily, could be Many things...

If the grains are being soaked at too high of a temp you could be extracting tannins, which would cause Astrigency. Go no higher than 155, take off the heat and let soak for 30 min.

OR it could be too high or low pH, the pH should be around 5.2- you can use a 5.2 buffer to control this.

OR it could be old extract- oxidized extract is harder to break down. Try to make sure your extract is new and fresh. Also make sure to have a nice rolling boil for a full 60 mins, this will break down proteins and complex sugars into simpler sugars and emino acids that the yeast can use for food- this is called a hot break and you know this happens when a frothy layer develops at the top of your boiling wort.

Also, use yeast nutrient to keep the yeast healthy, and whirlfloc and cold crash the beers ( which is just cooling the beer after 2 weeks of primary fermentation- this will allow proteins and yeast/lipids to fall out of the beer. Then syphon off the top of the fermentors without sucking up any trub, which is also very bitter)

Use all of the steps i recommend and see if u see any improvement. Good luck!

Thanks 3sheetsEMJ, that actually helps.

No problem, and be sure to do some research, and pick up a book or two. I just bought Brew Chem 101, which takes a scientific approach to brewing (where i got the info about the full boil) and explains basic steps to avoid off flavors. Its not long, you could read through it in a few days. To be honest i still make some mistakes and reading that book really helped me to understand what I was doing wrong.

I have made over 100 extract batches and each one had the same twang you describe. The last 10 or so batches have been all-grain and not one of them had any hint of this. I have tried everything suggested on the many HBT threads to fix the extract twang (and a few other ideas) with no success. Many people claim it is the freshness of the extract. I have tried extract from many major suppliers (NB, BMW, AHS to name a few) and I haven't found one that fixes the problem. I have tried dry, liquid, metal cans, plastic jars, bulk in milk jugs, etc. The list of things I have tried with no success is very long (water, full boil, late extract, etc......). So far only all-grain has fixed it (for me). I don't know what causes it with extract, but I would love to find out. Many people don't get any twang with extract and some do. I just don't know what makes the difference (yet).

I wish i knew what is meant by the twang, i cant say ive ever experienced that. If my recipe is solid my extract batches normally turn out very tasty

arringtonbp said:

Hello everybody.

I steep the specialty grains by turning on the stove and letting the grains steep in the heating water until it reaches about 160-165 degrees F.

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Are you putting the grains in the water as you turn the stove on, and how long does it take them to hit 160? The instructions say 20 min or until the water hits 170. With my stove I find that if I put in the grains when the water gets up to 120 then 20 minutes later the temp is about 165 which is why I pull them. Maybe the grains are in the water for too long?

I hear a lot of all-grain brewers claiming they can taste the twanginess of extract (but frequently get caught applauding other folks' extract brews when they believe them to be all-grain, and claiming to taste extract in all-grain recipes), and a lot of extract brewers who don't taste anything wrong with it.

I think there is something pretty suspicious to that, and to be a bit more blatant, it sounds like snobbery on behalf of some all-grain brewers. Expectations play a big role in our sense of taste.

It's also possible that some extract recipes just make certain off-flavors a little more common/more easily created than in all-grain.

For the OP, I'd suggest it's probably a green beer symptom, and possibly too much bitterness from the carbonic acid (carbon dioxide in water = carbonic acid, part of what makes soft drinks taste good when fizzy, and terrible when flat)
If you had this kegged, it'd be relatively simple to blow off the extra Co@, but in bottles, again, age is pretty much the only solution (unless you want to take the rather risky move of opening and/or emptying into a carboy and letting them offgas for a bit, and then rebottling and/or recapping.)

My brew partner and I have completed about 30 or so extract brews. Admittedly most, if not all, had this "twang". So we set out to get rid of this.

By no means are we experts but here is my two cents. The last 4 batches we decided to filter using a fine mesh strainer. The purpose of this was to prevent the residual hop pellet bits from going into the primary. But also, it aerated the hell outta the beer by pouring through a fine mesh screen. We also left the batches sit in primary almost a full week longer (about 3.5 weeks give or take a day) than usual.

This seemed to do the trick. Maybe it was the filtering, maybe the aeration, maybe patience, maybe a combination. Who knows, but it fixed the "twang".

Hope this helped.

I think there is something pretty suspicious to that, and to be a bit more blatant, it sounds like snobbery on behalf of some all-grain brewers. Expectations play a big role in our sense of taste.

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That may be your opinion, but I can tell you that the difference is night and day between beers with the twang and without. There are some great tasting extract beers and I love to brew extract, but I am forced to brew mostly all-grain to avoid the twang. I can assure you it is nothing about snobbery. I just want to improve the taste of my beers, and so do others. Some people experience this problem and some do not. Apparently you are one of those that has not experienced it. Consider yourself lucky. I am envious.

Brewing TV had an episode called "back to basics" where they talk a little bit about extract twang and Brew Strong on the brewing network had an episode on "kit beers" where they addressed the issue also. They would both same that you can make excellent beer with extract to where people cannot tell the difference between extract and all grain.

My brew partner and I have completed about 30 or so extract brews. Admittedly most, if not all, had this "twang". So we set out to get rid of this.

By no means are we experts but here is my two cents. The last 4 batches we decided to filter using a fine mesh strainer. The purpose of this was to prevent the residual hop pellet bits from going into the primary. But also, it aerated the hell outta the beer by pouring through a fine mesh screen. We also left the batches sit in primary almost a full week longer (about 3.5 weeks give or take a day) than usual.

This seemed to do the trick. Maybe it was the filtering, maybe the aeration, maybe patience, maybe a combination. Who knows, but it fixed the "twang".

Hope this helped.

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Pandoro, this is helpful. I have wondered if it has something to do with the hops. I have been meaning to try using hop sacks in the boil to help reduce the hop material going into the fermenter. I always just toss the pellets right into the kettle. I think I will try this the next time I do an extract batch.

cosmo said:

Pandoro, this is helpful. I have wondered if it has something to do with the hops. I have been meaning to try using hop sacks in the boil to help reduce the hop material going into the fermenter. I always just toss the pellets right into the kettle. I think I will try this the next time I do an extract batch.

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I am looking to do the same thing. I looked into getting those Tremco(sp?) bags. We just built a CFC (which is freakin awesome btw) so for fear of it getting clogged, we want to filter the pellet hops prior to chilling. Those paint strainer bags will hopefully do the trick. I will let you know how it goes but right now, we have 2 beers fermenting and wont brew for another week or so.

Pandoro said:

I am looking to do the same thing. I looked into getting those Tremco(sp?) bags. We just built a CFC (which is freakin awesome btw) so for fear of it getting clogged, we want to filter the pellet hops prior to chilling. Those paint strainer bags will hopefully do the trick. I will let you know how it goes but right now, we have 2 beers fermenting and wont brew for another week or so.

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Has anybody tried using fresh hops in place of pellet hops with the extract kits? Does the off taste go away?

Also, what holds the pellets together? Perhaps that is something that causes the off taste.

arringtonbp said:

Has anybody tried using fresh hops in place of pellet hops with the extract kits? Does the off taste go away?

Also, what holds the pellets together? Perhaps that is something that causes the off taste.

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Anyone have some thoughts on this?

arringtonbp said:

Haha. Is it possible that getting hop pellet sediment into primary would cause it to be more bitter though? There's only 1 oz of hops in this beer, so my understanding is that there should barely be any bitterness. I believe they were fuggle hop pellets.

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No...the only way for the bittering compounds to be released into the beer is by having the hops at a temp higher than 180. Last time I checked, nobody ferments at those temps.

arringtonbp said:

Has anybody tried using fresh hops in place of pellet hops with the extract kits? Does the off taste go away?

Also, what holds the pellets together? Perhaps that is something that causes the off taste.

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The pellets aren't "held together" by anything other than the sheer pressure that is used when creating them. Don't be silly, its not like they super glue them together.

blueballsbrewer said:

The pellets aren't "held together" by anything other than the sheer pressure that is used when creating them. Don't be silly, its not like they super glue them together.

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Be careful. Someone is going to try to add super glue to the boil now, to try to "bring their beer together better".

blueballsbrewer said:

No...the only way for the bittering compounds to be released into the beer is by having the hops at a temp higher than 180. Last time I checked, nobody ferments at those temps.

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What about dry hopping?

3sheetsEMJ said:

What about dry hopping?

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My thoughts exactly. Also, I would not be surprised if a fermentable compound was used to hold them together. Not super glue, I'm not a complete idiot .

3sheetsEMJ said:

What about dry hopping?

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Are you seriously asserting that you get increased bitterness from dry hopping....if that is the case, I have a great book you can read.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Homebrewing-Third-Edition/dp/0060531053/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330788128&sr=8-1