Help - multiple yeast failures

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Buckeye_Phil

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Need some help / ideas on a current issue I'm having...

Bought wlp001 vial on Saturday (exp sept 2015) and stored it in car trunk while I brewery hopped that afternoon. Made my standard 2L starter Saturday night and brewed Sunday morning (1.052 APA). Checked / shook starter multiple times Sunday morning and afternoon and there was zero activity. Like not even a whisper of gas if I capped and shook violently.

I ran out Sunday afternoon and bought another vial from a different shop (expires July 2015) and pitched directly to primary with 60-sec pure O2. I cringe thinking of my first beer without a starter, but it was already in the carboy for 12-hrs and I felt I needed to pitch. After 12-hrs, there are no signs of activity. Not even any surface bubbles showing signs of life. Usually at this point, I'm blowing off.

I have 2 thoughts.

1) first vial died from high temp in car trunk, second vial hasn't had enough time to get started. I hope this is the case, but I'm skeptical. I brewed in TX for 3 years and got yeast delivered on a truck. Never had an issue getting a starter going.

2) star san issue (far-fetched but hear me out). My latest jug is super thick and viscous (like honey) and takes tons of force to squeeze it into the measuring container. Diluted solution is cloudy to the point that I can't see through the carboy. That said, I've used it on the last 5-10 batches without issue. However, yesterday, I noticed the container I keep a mixed solution in (for gravity samples, etc) has become warped. The plastic has bulged out at a section of the handle - I didn't think much of it until I tried to push it back and realized it's a very strong part of the bottle. I started wondering if a chemical reaction could be the culprit.

Any ideas on why two separate vials have failed? I may pick up some dry yeast tonight - any issues pitching a day after oxygenation. Really frustrating to have yeast issues like this on my 45th batch! Guess there's always something to learn.
 
Take another gravity reading before pitching more yeast i'd wait at least 24-36 before starting to worry, just double check gravity readings and what is the wort temp low 60's can cause lag time
 
Buckeye_Phil said:
Need some help / ideas on a current issue I'm having...

Bought wlp001 vial on Saturday (exp sept 2015) and stored it in car trunk while I brewery hopped that afternoon.
How warm was it that afternoon? May or may not have damaged the yeast.

Made my standard 2L starter Saturday night and brewed Sunday morning (1.052 APA). Checked / shook starter multiple times Sunday morning and afternoon and there was zero activity. Like not even a whisper of gas if I capped and shook violently. Starter may not have formed a krausen because it was done. Did you cold crash, andd save, this starter. You may have a lot of yeast to pitch.

I ran out Sunday afternoon and bought another vial from a different shop (expires July 2015) and pitched directly to primary with 60-sec pure O2. I cringe thinking of my first beer without a starter, but it was already in the carboy for 12-hrs and I felt I needed to pitch. After 12-hrs, there are no signs of activity. Not even any surface bubbles showing signs of life. Usually at this point, I'm blowing off. This will be an under pitch, lag time will be increased. Don't get to nervous until at least 36 hours has elapsed.

I have 2 thoughts.

1) first vial died from high temp in car trunk, second vial hasn't had enough time to get started. I hope this is the case, but I'm skeptical. I brewed in TX for 3 years and got yeast delivered on a truck. Never had an issue getting a starter going.

2) star san issue (far-fetched but hear me out). My latest jug is super thick and viscous (like honey) and takes tons of force to squeeze it into the measuring container. Diluted solution is cloudy to the point that I can't see through the carboy. That said, I've used it on the last 5-10 batches without issue. However, yesterday, I noticed the container I keep a mixed solution in (for gravity samples, etc) has become warped. The plastic has bulged out at a section of the handle - I didn't think much of it until I tried to push it back and realized it's a very strong part of the bottle. I started wondering if a chemical reaction could be the culprit.

Any ideas on why two separate vials have failed? I may pick up some dry yeast tonight - any issues pitching a day after oxygenation. Really frustrating to have yeast issues like this on my 45th batch! Guess there's always something to learn.
Click to expand...

Definitely a problem with the Starsan concentrate. May be a super concentrate.
 
Thanks flars. Knew I was under pitching with one vial, but it was all I had. Realize the starter may not show signs of krausen, but capping tight and shaking produced no gas at all. Pretty sure it's dead. As far as car temps, I'm not sure. Day got up to 90 and yeast was in the trunk. Guess I should've let my wife carry it in her purse.
 
You've mentioned effectively waiting 10-18hrs between on checking for activity. It can sometimes take >24hrs, especially if an older or stressed vial.

Wait at least that long. You also need to be making your starters 48-72hrs in advance.
 
Is the 48-72 hr guidance to allow time to decant? I always do 24hrs and pitch at high krausen (unless I'm doing a lager or high gravity beer). Never takes more than 12-18 hrs to get the starter going strong. I plan on being patient, but in the mean time want to come up with a plan B in case. Thanks for all the feedback so far.
 
Buckeye_Phil said:
Thanks flars. Knew I was under pitching with one vial, but it was all I had. Realize the starter may not show signs of krausen, but capping tight and shaking produced no gas at all. Pretty sure it's dead. As far as car temps, I'm not sure. Day got up to 90 and yeast was in the trunk. Guess I should've let my wife carry it in her purse.
Click to expand...

At 90° and closed up in a car, that yeast died. "Cars parked in direct sunlight can reach internal temperatures up to 131° F - 172° F (55° C – 78° C) when outside temperatures are 80° F – 100° F (27° C – 38° C). ...in one hour..."
 
I plan to have my starters ready a week in advance of brew days. Stuff happens quite often to delay making the starter, but planning that far in advance means the yeast will be ready.
 
Flars - is that the main compartment, or the trunk? Would've thought the trunk would get no hotter than ambient with no windows / greenhouse effects. When I got home, the vial was warm but not hot.

I assume when I purchase yeast online and have it shipped over a 2-day period that FedEx is not refrigerating their trucks. Guess I thought trunk for 3-hrs would be no worse than a delivery truck.
 
Buckeye_Phil said:
Flars - is that the main compartment, or the trunk? Would've thought the trunk would get no hotter than ambient with no windows / greenhouse effects. When I got home, the vial was warm but not hot.

I assume when I purchase yeast online and have it shipped over a 2-day period that FedEx is not refrigerating their trucks. Guess I thought trunk for 3-hrs would be no worse than a delivery truck.
Click to expand...

Those temps were most likely for the passenger compartment. Trunk May not get as warm, but being enclosed, warmer than the FedEx truck.

We don't have a car with a trunk and it won't reach 90° for quite awhile here. It would be interesting to check out what the temp may have been on another of your warm days.
 
All else fails always keep a pack of S-05 or S-04 in the fridge always a good plan B for most styles
 
Buckeye_Phil said:
Flars - is that the main compartment, or the trunk? Would've thought the trunk would get no hotter than ambient with no windows / greenhouse effects. When I got home, the vial was warm but not hot.

I assume when I purchase yeast online and have it shipped over a 2-day period that FedEx is not refrigerating their trucks. Guess I thought trunk for 3-hrs would be no worse than a delivery truck.
Click to expand...

A trunk will be cooler, but it'll still easily hit 10-20F above ambient. Depends on how long the car is closed up. 90F in the sun, windows cracked open and 3-4hrs, the trunk might only hit 105-110F. Windows closed all the way, in the sun and 3-4hrs, 120+.

100F or so isn't going to kill yeast. Start getting in to the 120F range and it WILL kill the yeast. in the 100s it is going to stress the heck out of it and probably knock-off a lot of cells that were marginal and marginalize a lot of cells that aren't.

As for pitching, welp, it takes 12-24hrs for the first cell division. A nice healthy yeast, well aerated starter and you could be fine at 24hrs since you are typically looking at 1 or 2 cell divisions maximum. A big starter and you really need to add 12-24hrs extra to ensure you've gotten all of the divisions you want.

12hrs is absolutely too short unless it is VERY fresh starter.

As for why to wait 48-72hrs, to make completely sure everything has divided as much as it will, as well as 12-24hrs to cold crash. Because you generally want to decant off the wort and pitch only the yeast cake from the starter and enough starter to swirl up the entire yeast cake in to suspension.

That starter is going to be nasty. Do you want to pitch a couple of liters of nasty "beer" in to even say 20L of good, clean, honest wort that you want to turn in to really nice beer?
 
flars said:
Those temps were most likely for the passenger compartment. Trunk May not get as warm, but being enclosed, warmer than the FedEx truck.

We don't have a car with a trunk and it won't reach 90° for quite awhile here. It would be interesting to check out what the temp may have been on another of your warm days.
Click to expand...

The couple of liquid yeasts I've ordered in the summer time (I've never had them cold packed) both had significant extra lag, like 36+ hour lags. Both likely never saw weather over mid 80's at worst from where they were coming from. No idea the truck temps or temps in any shipping center, but I assume not too much warmer than that. Maybe upper 90's actual.
 
One last question...should I

A) wait and see if fermentation kicks off? Risk I see here is low pitch rate resulting in off-flavors and poor attenuation.

B) pitch some dry yeast to get things going quicker and increase cell count? Any potential downsides of pitching more yeast to get closer to recommended pitch rate?
 
Status update this morning... Still zero activity in carboy (36 hrs after pitching). However, in a surprising turn of events,y starter is showing signs of life (60 hrs after initial pitch).

Going to let the starter go today and reassess tonight.
 
Signs of activity? Out of curiosity, what kind? A starter of WLP005 I did a couple of months ago when I was going to brew a Session ended up showing no activity after 36hrs, so I go some dry yeast to pitch (S04 and notty to compare a split batch). At about 48hrs there was the slightest sign of activity. I gave it 72hrs and the tiny signs had come and gone by then. There was a SLIGHT protein ring maybe 3mm high. Cold crashed and decanted the wort and then pitched another 800ml starter on top of the "yeast" cake. That one should nice vigorous fermentation with about half an inch of krausen within 12hrs, cranked away. Decanted wort and filled my vial back up.

I used that (with oversized starter, to refill the vial again) about a month ago for an English Stout I brewed. Still early days since it has only been in the bottle 10 days at this point (and I cracked a bottle 3 days ago and 2 days ago). CO2 still needs to be absorbed in to the beer a bit better, but it is an AWESOME medium English stout (1.053OG down to 1.011).

That was the yeast I got when it was in the mid 80's outside (heat wave in late April this year at the time). At any rate, I pretty much wouldn't have said that there were signs of activity on that first starter. There wasn't even a complete layer for foam over the wort at any point, but it did seem like something, just nothing really notable. It certainly did manage to reproduce in the end and become healthy, wealthy and wise.
 
So after a very long lag period (4-days) in the fermenter, things started progressing. Additionally, my yeast starter became active in day 5, so I pitched it too (figured it would help attenuate and minimize off flavors from long lag).

Beer fermented from 1.052 down to 1.012. Not bad, but also not as dry as I'm used to for my IPAs (with 12 oz sugar).

Sample tasted ok. Hard to tell if any off flavors are present. The 4 lb of rye and chinook hops masked anything else going on. Cold conditioning at the moment, waiting for an open tap.
 

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