Can I brew with this high alkalinity well water?

Can I cut this (my well water) with RO at 25% well and 75% RO, or should I punt and build water from scratch?

Well Water Analysis
--------------------------
Ca = 212
Mg = 55
Na = 42
Cl = 118
SO4 = 236
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = 436
Bicarb = 532
Residual Alkalinity = 252

Alternately I'm considering building scratch water from RO (for an all grain cross between Vienna Lager and Amber Lager, with 16 SRM and OG = 1.062) by adding to every 5 gal. of RO water the following:

1.0 g. CaSO4
5.0 g. CaCl2
2.6 g. NaHCO3
2.0 g. MgSO4

Please let me know your thoughts.

That's 8.72 mEq/L alkalinity and that is a lot! But you also have 10.6 mEq/L calcium so you can potentially drop the alkalinity to about 1 (the maximum desired though lower is better in most cases) and still retain 2.9 mEq/L calcium just by heating the water or by lime treatment. This would, however, leave the 236 mg/L sulfate which some like in some beers but others don't in any beers.

To get the alkalinity below 1 mEq/L by dilution will require 7.72:1 RO to tap and at that point you might as well, IMO, go 100% RO and gain complete control. Were you you to do that you would not want any alkalinity for these lagers and so would not use any NaHCO3. Quite the opposite, you will need some acid which is conveniently had in the form of 2 - 3% of the grist being made up of acidulated malt. If you are using noble hops you will not want the sulfate either and magnesium generally is not considered flavor positive (though some like it in some beers). That leaves you with the CaCl2. You might want to start with less than 5 grams per 5 gallons. Perhaps half that but some of the best lagers have even less than that. It's a matter of personal taste.

Wow! What more can I do than to thank you kindly for such a detailed assessment!!!

If I add only CaCl2 to the RO water, and if Bru'n Water subsequently indicates a mash pH projection in the low 5.2's for my given grain bill, should that low a mash pH be of concern to me? The lager I'm brewing has a target SRM of 16, making it on the darker side and more dark than normal for the Vienna style. Seems to me that some alkalinity will be necessary based on the SRM.

Should I also add CaCl2 to the RO sparge water?

Silver_Is_Money said:

If I add only CaCl2 to the RO water, and if Bru'n Water subsequently indicates a mash pH projection in the low 5.2's for my given grain bill, should that low a mash pH be of concern to me?

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I'd be skeptical about the Bru'n water assessment but I wouldn't shrug it off either. What actually transpires depends on the particular properties of the particular (down to the lot number) malts you are using. In most cases some sauermalz will be required but if you have an unusually acidiic base malt with unusually low buffering and an unusually acidic Vienna malt with and unusually high buffering and throw in some extra acidic caramel you could indeed wind up with a mash pH that low. The best thing to do would be to make a test mash.

Silver_Is_Money said:

The lager I'm brewing has a target SRM of 16, making it on the darker side and more dark than normal for the Vienna style. Seems to me that some alkalinity will be necessary based on the SRM.

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There is a correlation between color and acidity but it is not a very close one.

Silver_Is_Money said:

Should I also add CaCl2 to the RO sparge water?

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You are really adding this for the sake of getting the chloride in there for flavor so whichever way is most convenient. I find treating the whole volume of water I am going to brew with at the start of the day the easiest. I suppose that if I were to put all the calcium chloride in one or the other I'd put it all in the mash water.

Here is my planned (and admittedly a bit "kitchen sink") grain bill. I intent to dough in using roughly 1.5 quarts of water per pound of malts. I will probably just use 20 quarts of strike water. Intended mash is 60 minutes beginning at 153-154 degrees F. and ending at about 150 degrees F.

6 lbs. Briess 2-row pale 1.8L
3 lbs. Briess Vienna 3.5L
2.6 lbs. Dingemans Aromatic 19L
0.75 Lbs. Belgian Caramunich 56L
0.5 Lbs. Melanoidin 26L
0.25 Lbs. Briess Crystal 80L
0.0794 Lbs. Carafa III Special (450-490L)

Total grain bill = 13.1794 lbs.
SRM = 16

I don't have data on any of those malts so the best I can do is use malts that are of similar properties and color and if I do that I estimate pH of about 5.3. I would definitely do a test mash here before making a decision to add acid or alkali.

ajdelange said:

That's 8.72 mEq/L alkalinity and that is a lot! But you also have 10.6 mEq/L calcium so you can potentially drop the alkalinity to about 1 (the maximum desired though lower is better in most cases) and still retain 2.9 mEq/L calcium just by heating the water or by lime treatment. This would, however, leave the 236 mg/L sulfate which some like in some beers but others don't in any beers.

To get the alkalinity below 1 mEq/L by dilution will require 7.72:1 RO to tap and at that point you might as well, IMO, go 100% RO and gain complete control. Were you you to do that you would not want any alkalinity for these lagers and so would not use any NaHCO3. Quite the opposite, you will need some acid which is conveniently had in the form of 2 - 3% of the grist being made up of acidulated malt. If you are using noble hops you will not want the sulfate either and magnesium generally is not considered flavor positive (though some like it in some beers). That leaves you with the CaCl2. You might want to start with less than 5 grams per 5 gallons. Perhaps half that but some of the best lagers have even less than that. It's a matter of personal taste.

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AJ and I have had a couple PM discussions about how to teach about water, AJ from the perspective of someone who has the Chemistry background to understand it, me from the perspective of someone trying to learn, and who is a professional educator. AJ suggested posting my questions/comments to this thread from the PM, which I am doing. AJ will respond to those comments.

This may or may not be the right thread in which to discuss how to teach newbies about water, but this is where we are. Here goes:

**********************

I noted your reply in the "Can I brew with this high alkalinity well water" thread this morning. Let me, if you will, make a few "learner" comments about it.

Here's the original data:
Ca = 212
Mg = 55
Na = 42
Cl = 118
SO4 = 236
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = 436
Bicarb = 532
Residual Alkalinity = 252

That's 8.72 mEq/L alkalinity and that is a lot!

Click to expand...

OK. How did you figure this out from the information that was given, and what threshold would it have to pass in order for it to be a lot?

Further, and this is part of what makes this difficult for newbies, he's reporting his information above in PPM; you switch over to mEq/L which relates to PPM as what? I get the sense he's asking the question in one language, and you're answering it in another.

But you also have 10.6 mEq/L calcium so you can potentially drop the alkalinity to about 1 (the maximum desired though lower is better in most cases) and still retain 2.9 mEq/L calcium just by heating the water or by lime treatment.

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Again, where did the 10.6 come from? He can drop the alkalinity to 1 and still retain 2.9 mEq/L calcium.....why would he want to retain the 2.9 mEq/L calcium? Is that a goal? Is it a condition that in conjunction with something else is good, or at least tolerable?

And then there's the "just by heating the water." Heating it to...what? Boiling? 120 degrees F? And why does heating the water do anything to the alkalinity? Is it precipitating something out? Boiling it off? Changing its chemical composition? What?

This would, however, leave the 236 mg/L sulfate which some like in some beers but others don't in any beers.

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Is there nothing that can be done about this, and thus, we're relegated to accepting it if we like what it does in beer, and having to choose a different path if we do not?

To get the alkalinity below 1 mEq/L by dilution will require 7.72:1 RO to tap

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Now I'm flummoxed. Above, you noted OP can drop the alkalinity to 1 by....boiling. So why, if he can get it to 1, does he need to dilute at 7.72:1, when it would appear a much lower dilution rate would get him significantly under 1 if he simply dilutes the heated water?

and at that point you might as well, IMO, go 100% RO and gain complete control. Were you you to do that you would not want any alkalinity for these lagers and so would not use any NaHCO3.

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At this point I need to take NaHCO3 to google and find out what it is. Ahhh....Sodium Bicarbonate or Baking Soda. Granted, he used NaHCO3 in the original post, but this is what I was referring to in my last PM to you. The names keep switching, and from a teaching point of view, if I were doing this, I'd probably say it as "NaHCO3 (sodium bicarbonate, i.e., baking soda).

Quite the opposite, you will need some acid which is conveniently had in the form of 2 - 3% of the grist being made up of acidulated malt.

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This implies it can only be done by sauermalz, when isn't it also possible to use Lactic or Phosphoric or Citric? For someone trying to figure this out, who thinks using acid is an acceptable way to bring down PH, this can be confusing. Can we use something else or is acidulated malt the only way?

Or is it that, because he wants to do a Lager, you're using the Reinheitsgebot which only allows malt, yeast, water, hops and thus only sauermalz is allowable?

If you are using noble hops you will not want the sulfate either

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Is this the Calcium Sulfate you're referring to, i.e., CaSO4? Or is it the Magnesium Sulfate MgSO4? Or both?

and magnesium generally is not considered flavor positive (though some like it in some beers). That leaves you with the CaCl2. You might want to start with less than 5 grams per 5 gallons. Perhaps half that but some of the best lagers have even less than that. It's a matter of personal taste.

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Does that mean he wants only CaCL2 in his RO water if he starts from RO water only?


AJ, as before, I always think it's tremendous that experts are willing to share their knowledge with others on public forums for free. So please do not take any of this as critical of your knowledge or willingness to help.

You and I have communicated before about trying to make all this user-friendly. When I read something like the above, the comments I have are things I'm thinking as I read it, and when I see what appears to be inconsistencies (heating drops alkalinity to 1, but dilution wouldn't take it lower?), I am confused.

Now, as before, it's entirely possible it's my ignorance of water chemistry that is to blame here, i.e., if I knew more, it would make sense to me.

mongoose33 said:

I noted your reply in the "Can I brew with this high alkalinity well water" thread this morning. Let me, if you will, make a few "learner" comments about it.

Here's the original data:
Ca = 212
Mg = 55
Na = 42
Cl = 118
SO4 = 236
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) = 436
Bicarb = 532
Residual Alkalinity = 252

ajdelange said:

That's 8.72 mEq/L alkalinity and that is a lot!

Click to expand...

OK. How did you figure this out from the information that was given, and what threshold would it have to pass in order for it to be a lot?

Further, and this is part of what makes this difficult for newbies, he's reporting his information above in PPM; you switch over to mEq/L which relates to PPM as what? I get the sense he's asking the question in one language, and you're answering it in another.

Click to expand...

Yes, I am because I am striving to get people to think in mEq/L as it just makes everything so easy to do once you get the hang of it. The whole reason for mEq (milliequivalents) is that one milliequivalent of this reacts with one milliequivalent of that. This is especially so as alkalinity is measured as the number of milliequivalents of acid required to transform all the bicarbonate ion in one liter of the water sample to carbonic acid (CO2). Alkalinity is reported in mEq/L in many parts of the world but it is also often converted to ppm as CaCO3, dH, French degrees etc. and, in one of the popular spreadsheets to ppm as bicarbonate (except that spreadsheet calls it bicarbonate). All this leads to various degrees of confusion as, for example, in the case of pure water which has an alkalinity of about 2.5 ppm as CaCO3 even though it contains no CaCO3.

It is, I suppose, rather like measuring in gills, cups, pints, quarts and gallons when the metric system is so much easier if one bites the bullet and learns it but some are incapable of doing that (my wife for example).

As I am campaigning to get people to think in terms of mEq/L I use them frequently and often, as I did here will simply say that the alkalinity (436 ppm as CaCO3) is 8.72 without explanation hoping that the readers will notice that 872 is twice 436 and thus perceive, for themselves, that 8.72 is 436/50 on the supposition that if they figure it out for themselves it will wedge in their synapses more firmly. I don't know if that's good pedagogy or not so sometimes I'll say "the alkalinity is 436/50 = 8.72 mEq/L"

Now this is the Brewing Science forum described as the place where there are 'in depth' discussions and that implies that the people who come here will bring more knowledge of and interest in brewing science than those reading the beginners forums. IOW it is more or less incumbent on them to acquire some basic knowledge of the brewing sciences so that those who post here don't have to start every post with an explanation of the basic structure of atoms, ions and so on. There are plenty of places to get this basic information on the web, in the notes in the instructions in the spreadsheets, the Palmer book etc but to help readers along there is quite a bit of the essential stuff in the Stickies at the top of the page. It is amazing how few people seem to be aware that those are there or perhaps there aren't enough of them or they aren't adequate.

As to how much alkalinity is a lot: that is a subjective judgement. We all like water with alkalinity of less than 1 mEq/L (50 ppm as CaCO3). A fair question here would be "Why is that?" to which the answer would be that we can easily deal with that much alkalinity with a modest amount of acid - an amount that would not adversely effect the beer's flavor. When alkalinity rises above 2 or 3 mEq/L it starts to get to be a problem as we will strive to get it down to 1 or less using one of several methods. Alkalinity of 8 is just rare. The guy must live on an alkali flat or something. Here we are relying on our experience in saying that this level of alkalinity is a lot. While appreciating that there will be those who want to know why that's a lot time and space don't permit explaining what the desirable levels of alkalinity are each time high alkalinity is encountered so we just sally on under the assumption that many readers will, at least after it is pointed out, that it is high, that others won't care, and that those who want to know more can ask, as was done here.

mongoose33 said:

ajdelange said:

But you also have 10.6 mEq/L calcium

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Again, where did the 10.6 come from?

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Same idea. The equivalent weight of calcium is 20 so 212/20 = 10.6 mEq/L.

mongoose33 said:

He can drop the alkalinity to 1 and still retain 2.9 mEq/L calcium.....why would he want to retain the 2.9 mEq/L calcium? Is that a goal? Is it a condition that in conjunction with something else is good, or at least tolerable?

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20*2.9 = 58 mg/L. It is commonly supposed, though not really true, that one should have at least 50 mg/L calcium in his mash water. This is something I would expect most readers of this forum to know. I would not expect a beginner to know that but then this forum isn't really for beginners.

mongoose33 said:

And then there's the "just by heating the water." Heating it to...what? Boiling? 120 degrees F? And why does heating the water do anything to the alkalinity? Is it precipitating something out? Boiling it off? Changing its chemical composition? What?

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This is again something that we would expect most readers of this forum to know about as it is a fundamental part of brewing knowledge even among beginning extract brewers. Thus going into the details in this context would too much space and obscure the salient point which is that the balance of calcium and alkalinity is favorably disposed for decarbonation by these methods (heating or lime treatment).

mongoose33 said:

ajdelange said:

This would, however, leave the 236 mg/L sulfate which some like in some beers but others don't in any beers.

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Is there nothing that can be done about this, and thus, we're relegated to accepting it if we like what it does in beer, and having to choose a different path if we do not?

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Different path i.e. removing the sulfate either by passing the water through a deionizing system such as a distillation aparatus, reverse osmosis or membrane filter or diluting the water with enough deionized water to get the sulfate down to a desirable level.

mongoose33 said:

ajdelange said:

To get the alkalinity below 1 mEq/L by dilution will require 7.72:1 RO to tap

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Now I'm flummoxed. Above, you noted OP can drop the alkalinity to 1 by....boiling. So why, if he can get it to 1, does he need to dilute at 7.72:1, when it would appear a much lower dilution rate would get him significantly under 1 if he simply dilutes the heated water?

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Dilution with RO is, IMO, a much simpler way to decarbonate than boiling or lime treatment (and a lot safer) provided one has a good, cheap supply of RO water at hand. But he could very well decarbonate down to 1 mEq/L with heat or lime and then dilute further to reach any alkalinity level he likes. Simplest of all, of course, is to just use 100% RO and taylor his water profile to whatever he wants by addition of salts, acids and bases.

Going to chop off here for fear of exceeding character count.

Leaving aside for now the issue of no need for SO4 ions, and with regard to my 'alternate' proposal to make up brewing water (as seen in my first post above) by adding salts to RO water (see proposed salts mixture below), what is my resulting alkalinity and residual alkalinity for this mixture of salts added to store bought RO? And will it likely lead to a mash pH greater than 5.5 for my above grain bill? What mash pH should I be targeting?

Mixture for 5 gallons RO
--------------------------------
1.0 g. CaSO4
5.0 g. CaCl2
2.5 g. NaHCO3
2.0 g. MgSO4

mongoose33 said:

ajdelange said:

and at that point you might as well, IMO, go 100% RO and gain complete control. Were you you to do that you would not want any alkalinity for these lagers and so would not use any NaHCO3.

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At this point I need to take NaHCO3 to google and find out what it is. Ahhh....Sodium Bicarbonate or Baking Soda. Granted, he used NaHCO3 in the original post, but this is what I was referring to in my last PM to you. The names keep switching, and from a teaching point of view, if I were doing this, I'd probably say it as "NaHCO3 (sodium bicarbonate, i.e., baking soda).

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As I'm working my way through these I am coming more and more to the conclusion that perhaps there is a minimum level of knowledge required to participate fully in this forum. For efficient communication we can't be explaining the basics in each and every post or they would all be as long as this one (including the one which precedes it). There is a language of chemistry and in order to communicate in it one must know some of the terms, at least the basic ones. I'm beginning to think that this is not the place to try to teach brewing water chemistry to beginners but rather a place where those who have made the investment (reading the Palmer book or the explanatory pages in Bru'n water for example) might come to broaden and/or apply the fundamentals they have learned elsewhere.

In this case OP reports pretty appalling water and basically asks if there is anything he can do about it. In 8 lines I am able to give him an answer that is apparently useful to him even though I used some of the more advanced language of brewing water chemistry.

You aren't as familiar with this language as he apparently is and so you do what any intelligent soul would do: look up what you can and ask for further information about what you can't. I guess I think that's a pretty workable system in terms of what I think this forum is for.

Note that this does not satisfy my desire to find some simple way to get everyone who wants to be up to the level of OP. I'm pretty convinced that this isn't the place to do that.

mongoose33 said:

ajdelange said:

Quite the opposite, you will need some acid which is conveniently had in the form of 2 - 3% of the grist being made up of acidulated malt.

Click to expand...

This implies it can only be done by sauermalz, when isn't it also possible to use Lactic or Phosphoric or Citric? For someone trying to figure this out, who thinks using acid is an acceptable way to bring down PH, this can be confusing. Can we use something else or is acidulated malt the only way?

Click to expand...

Well it does say that the acid is conveniently had from sauermalz which I would think implies that other acids (excluding things like Prussic, for example) would serve as well and that is of course the case. Once again we note that this is a forum where the use of various acids and sauermalz has been debated extensively. Someone just jumping in might not know that and so it might be well to advise new participants to search the history and archives.

mongoose33 said:

Or is it that, because he wants to do a Lager, you're using the Reinheitsgebot which only allows malt, yeast, water, hops and thus only sauermalz is allowable?

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There was no intention to restrict the recommendation to sauermalz. It could have been worded better though.

mongoose33 said:

ajdelange said:

If you are using noble hops you will not want the sulfate either

Click to expand...

Is this the Calcium Sulfate you're referring to, i.e., CaSO4? Or is it the Magnesium Sulfate MgSO4? Or both?

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Both, i.e. sulfate in any form.

mongoose33 said:

ajdelange said:

and magnesium generally is not considered flavor positive (though some like it in some beers). That leaves you with the CaCl2. You might want to start with less than 5 grams per 5 gallons. Perhaps half that but some of the best lagers have even less than that. It's a matter of personal taste.

Click to expand...

Does that mean he wants only CaCL2 in his RO water if he starts from RO water only?

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Yes, that's often a good place to start even if one does eventually include some sulfate in later versions of the beer.

I come up with total alkalinity as 250 ppm CaCO3, which to A.J.'s credit for explaining the conversion, can also be stated as 250/50 = 5.00 mEq/L

RO or Distilled Water Source
Total Water Treated: 5.00 gallons

Mash Water Adjustments
(Gypsum) CaSO4: 1.00 grams
(Calcium Chloride) CaCl2: 5.00 grams
(Epsom Salt) MgSO4: 2.00 grams
(Baking Soda) NaHCO3: 2.50 grams

Overall Water Profile
Ca+2 84.00 ppm
Mg+2 9.72 ppm
Na+ 36.15 ppm
Cl- 127.47 ppm
SO4-2 70.68 ppm
Sulfate To Chloride Ratio: 1:1
Chloride / Sulfate Ratio: 1.80
Indicator: Very Malty

Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3):
Total Alkalinity: 249.59 79
Residual Alkalinity: 183.87 (RA = 17)
Neutralized Alkalinity: 166.39
Final Adjusted Alkalinity: 83.20

What is the 79 that is sitting alongside the 249.59?

Why is RA listed as 183.87 and then also as 17?

Is the neutralized Alkalinity the fraction that is consumed by the acidity in the malt grains?

Bottom line: Can I mash with it, and will I (in theory at least) hit somewhere right around pH 5.4?

OK, so I went and did something a bit crazy today. I made up 19.25 quarts of "potential" mash (strike) water using a blend of 1/3 my high alkalinity well water and 2/3 RO. I then added to this blend 4 g. CaCl2 (from a freshly opened bottle of DL Carlson beads, water saturation level unknown), and then I also added 2 ml of 88% lactic acid. I mixed it well, let it sit for an hour, and then I performed a crude GH/KH fish water (liquid drops) test on it. It is presently sitting at 23 GH and 7 (to perhaps 7.5) KH. Call me crazy, but I just may run with it.

PS: The 100% well water came in at 42.5 GH and 24.5 KH using the same test kit. All sample sizes were doubled for better precision with the drops. All tests performed twice. RO is our own. Assuming an RO rejection rate of 90%, our RO is probably at about 43.6 in total alkalinity, based upon 436 total alkalinity for our homes well water.

Silver_Is_Money said:

Leaving aside for now the issue of no need for SO4 ions, and with regard to my 'alternate' proposal to make up brewing water (as seen in my first post above) by adding salts to RO water (see proposed salts mixture below), what is my resulting alkalinity and residual alkalinity for this mixture of salts added to store bought RO? And will it likely lead to a mash pH greater than 5.5 for my above grain bill? What mash pH should I be targeting?

Mixture for 5 gallons RO
--------------------------------
1.0 g. CaSO4
5.0 g. CaCl2
2.5 g. NaHCO3
2.0 g. MgSO4

Click to expand...

If you put 2.5 grams (2500 mg) of NaHCO3 into 20 liters of DI water your alkalinity will be approximately 2500/(23 + 61)/20 = 1.5 mEq/L which is 75 ppm as CaCO3. 23 + 61 is the molecular weight of sodium bicarbonate. The residual alkalinity really isn't important but as the calcium content is about 5.4 mEq/L it is RA = 1.5 -5.4/3.5 = -0.04 or -20 ppm as CaCO3. Assuming the same malts that I used for pH prediction in a previous post you would have a mash pH close to 5.4 but again I caution that the malts that I use in these calculations may not be that close to the malts you have.

Thank you again A. J.

What do you make of my well water and RO strike water concoction? Should I go with it or toss it and build from scratch?

You can absolutely tweak a blend of tap and well water to some extent but unless you are working with the same water as the water you sent in for analysis there is some uncertainty as to what you will get. My thinking is that if you are buying 4 gallons of RRO water you might as well buy 5 and be sure about what you are getting. The other side of the coin is that in working with a blend you will be forced to learn more about water chemistry.