big_al_in_k-zoo
Well-Known Member
Subscribed. Can't wait to see/find out your results Flomaster / Alowell.
This seems to be a no brainer.
This seems to be a no brainer.
Priming a March with an 'autovent'
- Thread starter Yorg
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Sorry to kill the party, but now I'm having trouble with my autovent. It's not priming well enough to take strike water all the way to my mash tun. I still have a bleeder valve, but I'm not sure what has happened. All I did was some tests with water. Worked great first few times, now I'm having problems.
Here's my setup in case anyone can see the issue:
I can readily send water out the left hand side of of the outlet. But not to the right. Not sure why. I also don't hear any hissing from my autovent.
Thanks.
Here's my setup in case anyone can see the issue:
I can readily send water out the left hand side of of the outlet. But not to the right. Not sure why. I also don't hear any hissing from my autovent.
Thanks.
perhaps its where your auto valve is located. maybe if you used a cross instead of a tee directly above your outlet it *MIGHT* work better?
Idunno because I don't have my pump or valve yet but seems like a it might work just a tad bit better.
-=jason=-
Idunno because I don't have my pump or valve yet but seems like a it might work just a tad bit better.
-=jason=-
Just a wild guess here - assuming that the kegs are sitting on a level surface, it looks like the horizontal pipe slants down to the right. This would let air accumulate between the closed valve to the left of the pump output and the pump without reaching the vent. It might work better if the path to the vent sloped continuously upward with the vent being the highest point. If that's not it, I don't have any other ideas.
Looking at the Watts spec sheet I see that they advise two things:
1) loosen the black cap two turns for proper venting.
2) Mount the air vent on a pipe size LARGER than the size of your system to get proper separation of air and water.
Gonna try that and report back.
1) loosen the black cap two turns for proper venting.
2) Mount the air vent on a pipe size LARGER than the size of your system to get proper separation of air and water.
Gonna try that and report back.
Well, I have mine working, but it's not 100%. I think I need a better understanding of where to position the vent and what is making my system less than optimal.
I increased the size of the tee housing the autovent. The recommendation was 2.5 times the incoming pipe, but I just went from 1/2" to 3/4" as that's what I had. I also removed the black screw cap.
When I open the valve from my keggle, I hear air hiss out of the autovent, so it is working. But that doesn't mean that my pump is primed. I think it mostly vents when turned off, so sometimes I have to turn the pump on and off a few times, then it's primed.
Not the slam dunk I was hoping for. I'm hoping to learn more about how to setup this autovent.
Report back on your experiences, guys!
I increased the size of the tee housing the autovent. The recommendation was 2.5 times the incoming pipe, but I just went from 1/2" to 3/4" as that's what I had. I also removed the black screw cap.
When I open the valve from my keggle, I hear air hiss out of the autovent, so it is working. But that doesn't mean that my pump is primed. I think it mostly vents when turned off, so sometimes I have to turn the pump on and off a few times, then it's primed.
Not the slam dunk I was hoping for. I'm hoping to learn more about how to setup this autovent.
Report back on your experiences, guys!
IMO, it would work better if you positioned the autovent a little lower. The top of the autovent as shown is only a couple of inches or so below the kettle valve. You could test this hypothesis by raising the kettle on blocks of some kind. I would think raising it 4-6 inches might do it. It would be worth a try at least.
I had some priming problems with a kettle I use to heat water (ball valve on the kettle is connected to the pump input, pump is about a foot lower than the kettle). It worked fine with cold water, but when heating the water, it would frequently lose prime. I suspected the dip tube inside the kettle was the problem, so I removed it, and haven't had any more problems - the dead space created by not having a dip tube isn't really a problem as I only use this kettle for heating water.
Here's a thread with some more detailed information from Beerthirty on his setup.
Seems like he has an autovent on BOTH the input and the output. This seems like a good way to go as I'm still having problems with the air in the diptube preventing fluid from filling the pump head. I ordered a second auto vent for the input line. Makes sense.
I'm wondering why the setup with no autovent on the input side works so well in Yerg's video that started this thread. Since he mentioned draining from this "tun" I'm thinking he does not have a dip tube. So he has no issue with air trapped in the dip tube like I do. Also, I don't have near as much force gravity draining as he does in his setup.
The second autovent on the inlet side should make this thing automatic for me. Wish I didn't have to wait for it as I'm brewing tomorrow! I'll report back when I get the second autovent.
Seems like he has an autovent on BOTH the input and the output. This seems like a good way to go as I'm still having problems with the air in the diptube preventing fluid from filling the pump head. I ordered a second auto vent for the input line. Makes sense.
I'm wondering why the setup with no autovent on the input side works so well in Yerg's video that started this thread. Since he mentioned draining from this "tun" I'm thinking he does not have a dip tube. So he has no issue with air trapped in the dip tube like I do. Also, I don't have near as much force gravity draining as he does in his setup.
The second autovent on the inlet side should make this thing automatic for me. Wish I didn't have to wait for it as I'm brewing tomorrow! I'll report back when I get the second autovent.
The autovents in BeerThirty's rig were placed above the pumps with enough tubing to catch the air bubble from the keg dip tube. When the pump is started the bubble hits the inlet side first and most will vent if the pump is stopped for about 15 seconds, the remaining air usually will pass on out through the outlet air vent. The plastic tubing connecting them to the pumps is 1/2" PFA that was heated and formed into the bends to keep the stress on the pump connections minimal. if you were to build a "D" loop on its back with the flow along the bottom and the air vent in the top, you might be able to catch the air bubble and vent it.
It would seem to me that once an air bubble makes it past the pump head it would make no difference where it goes. It may exit through the autovent or it may move on to where the tubing terminates. Once the pump head is flooded and no air remains downstream on the suction side of the pump, there should be no further priming problems unless there's an air leak. I would think that the autovent would permit the pump head to be flooded with ease, then you could turn on the pump and push out any air that in front of the pump.
Unfortunately I don't understand the idea. a quick drawing would greatly help.
Many thanks for your replies.
So you're basically saying I should put the air vent on the inlet side of the pump to allow air that blocks the pump head from flooding the release.
My understanding is that this is one issue. The second issue is that when you turn off your pump, air can be pulled back into the pump head, causing it to lock up on you. Hence the need for two autovents.
I'm not sure where the best spot to position the vents are, though. Close to the pump? Near the keggle? Up high? I even thought of having them on a quick connect I could move around.
I'm going to try having a vent on the inlet side as well as the outlet.
Absolutely NO. The vent must be on the output side of the pump.
Here's my take:
1. You can avoid the possibility of pulling air back into the pump head by simply closing the flow control valve on the output side of the pump before turning off the pump.
2. Raise your kettle some or lower the pump. You need a little bit more positive suction head in order to make priming easier. This would very extremely easy to try, so why not do it?
3. You only need a single vent (auto or manual) on the output side of the pump.
Put this kind of loop on the inlet side, right, with the left side heading to the pump and the right side the inlet.
Assuming I have that right I'll give it a shot, though today I'm brewing with the system I've got. A nice porter for the winter.
Assuming I have that right I'll give it a shot, though today I'm brewing with the system I've got. A nice porter for the winter.
I understand what you're saying. #1 makes sense to prevent air being pulled back. However, according to Beerthirty, the vent that was to relieve air pressure pulled back was on the OUTLET side.
My problem really does appear to be lack of positive pressure from the keggle. I see the air bubbles get trapped in the tube from keggle to pump. But raising it is an issue due to hard plumbing I have to gravity transfer from my mash tun above it. It's as high as it can go to allow transfer. If I raise it, it'll be above my mash tun plumbing, among other challenges. I might be able to lower the pump a bit, but not much.
If the problem is air stuck in the dip tube, wouldn't a vent on the inlet side solve this problem?
Secondly, If I drilled a small hole or two in the dip tube, would it keep air out of it and still suction fine? I use a hop strainger so hops aren't really an issue.
Thanks again for all the ideas. There do seem to be some conflicting concepts about setup of this thing.
...
????
Probably not because if it's sucking air it will cause the pump to lose it's prime and you won't be pumping anyway. So long as the DIP tube is submerged, it won't be sucking air, so no problem there either.
The problem with dip tubes is the tube and outlet is the point where air gets trapped and there is no way to vent it. When the pump fires this air bubble hits the intake and gets trapped in the pump head, (almost all 3000+ RPM pumps have this problem). Either you put a tee and vent valve just after the keg outlet valve, or design some kind of air trap before the pump inlet. If the pump was slightly above the outlet and the tubing grades up to the inlet, then an air vent on the outlet would work wonders. The problem with this approach is when the water approaches boiling temps it will flash to steam in the pump head and stop flowing. The ultimate solution for below keg pump mounts is to run the outlet tube to the bottom of the keg through the skirt with tubing grading up and the air will always self vent as the keg fills.
I went to this approach because of the same problems you are having, no air bubbles and air binding of the pump now that the drain tube is in the bottom of the keg.
I went to this approach because of the same problems you are having, no air bubbles and air binding of the pump now that the drain tube is in the bottom of the keg.
Brewed today and got a stuck sparge. Autovent worked like a charm, though. Not sure why it's performance is inconsistent for me.
I was recirculating with RIMS when this happened:
With all of my priming issues in this new system I kept thinking the vent was screwed up. One disadvantage of hard plumbing is that I couldn't see my RIMS recirculation was slow, almost stuck.
So one sign of a slow/stuck sparge is fizzy wort coming out of the vent. Once I solved the stuck sparge the vent went back to normal.
I was recirculating with RIMS when this happened:
With all of my priming issues in this new system I kept thinking the vent was screwed up. One disadvantage of hard plumbing is that I couldn't see my RIMS recirculation was slow, almost stuck.
So one sign of a slow/stuck sparge is fizzy wort coming out of the vent. Once I solved the stuck sparge the vent went back to normal.
johnnyo1977
Well-Known Member
I just picked the honeywell valves up at homedepot for $9. can't wait to try them.
ok so I tested my pump out last night and WOW... anyone with a pump should NOT be with out an autovent. I recirculated for a good 20 minutes with out loosing prime. the only time I lost prime was when the water was nearly empty and made a mini vortex and sucked air into the side pick up tube. leaving maybe 2-3 cups of water left in there. factor in trub and I am doing pretty well with getting every thing out.
once I get my Cam Lock fittings its going to be awesome and much easier connecting hoses and what not.
-=Jason=-
once I get my Cam Lock fittings its going to be awesome and much easier connecting hoses and what not.
-=Jason=-
big_al_in_k-zoo
Well-Known Member
That's good news! But I've been scouring the internet for one of these...Can't find 'em. On another note, how do you like the Chugger Pump? You get it on Ebay?
yeah on ebay $99.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220721509445#ht_1308wt_905 FREE SHIPPING...
works great and the money I saved is going towards SS camlock fittings
you can pay using paypal and a debit card if you don't have money in your paypal account.
as for the autovent try www.grainger.com I opted for the 1/2" size so no bushings needed for my tee.
-=jason=-
works great and the money I saved is going towards SS camlock fittings
you can pay using paypal and a debit card if you don't have money in your paypal account.
as for the autovent try www.grainger.com I opted for the 1/2" size so no bushings needed for my tee.
-=jason=-
1fastsedan
Active Member
Do you have a Grainger part number for the 1/2" one? I checked their site, but all I see are the 1/4" and 1/8". Thanks!yeah on ebay $99.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220721509445#ht_1308wt_905 FREE SHIPPING...
works great and the money I saved is going towards SS camlock fittings
you can pay using paypal and a debit card if you don't have money in your paypal account.
as for the autovent try www.grainger.com I opted for the 1/2" size so no bushings needed for my tee.
-=jason=-
wildwest450
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I don't get it, does everyone have a hard time priming march pumps? I have never lost prime while recirculating, and priming is very simple.
I just have a pinch clamp on the end of my tubing, open ball valve with tubing above valve, fill tubing and pinch off the end. Then connect to the in flow, release and let her rip, works 100% of the time.
Maybe it's the undying need for another brewing gadget??
I primed fine with the bleeder valve. But put it this way, if you could get a self priming pump for $10 more than you paid, would you do it?
Plus, with RIMS and the potential for dry firing your element, it seems like a nice thing to have.
Plus, with RIMS and the potential for dry firing your element, it seems like a nice thing to have.
1. No, because you can't valve off a self priming pump like we commonly do with the mag drive pumps. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but generally speaking, ya know.
2. I don't have loss of prime problems once the pump is initially primed. I can tell visually and audibly if something is amiss with the circulation. I do not operate my RIMS unattended. I shut off the burners and pumps if I need to leave it unattended for any reason, then resume operation when I return. This is not a big deal at all.
alowell
Well-Known Member
I think some people have hard-piped systems and would like to keep them that way. That is why the autovent is so attractive...it still keeps the system hard-piped without having tubing connections. I think, like many of the gadgets here, it is a preference thing.
I can see the attraction for hard-piped systems, but I too have been confused by all the autovent pimping on the boards lately. Never lost prime on either my 809 or LG 5.5-MD-HC
I have had an issue when priming with the output connected to a submerged port on another vessel. I disconnect the camlock and allow the pump to fill, then reconnect and that's all I need to do. If hard-piped, I wouldn't be able to do that. Also, you can squeeze the tubing a little to help get any air bubbles out of the inlet (like a priming bulb on an outboard motor gas tank) Depending on the temperature and volume in the vessels, it may not "self prime" just by allowing the gravity feed as the pressure of the air in the outlet tubing/pipe may not move upstream sufficiently)
I installed my bleeder valve between the flow control valve and the pump head. Closing the flow control valve prior to opening the bleeder valve eliminates any potential back pressure from upstream, such as a submerged port on a kettle. Once primed, I simply close the bleeder valve and open the flow control valve as desired. Works perfectly for me every time.
I don't have a bleeder or autovent, that was kind of my point. If you have hard piping, then an autovent or bleeder valve is needed, as you say. Which one you decide to use is a personal choice.
I had a bleeder valve and it worked fine. But so does the autovent. For $10 it's a good solution. I just wondered why it's not mentioned as often as the bleeder valves, for which there are a lot of posts. The autovent is just as cheap and maybe even easier to use. But if you have a bleeder valve and it works, no need to upgrade.
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