Is this legal??

Hi Guys,
I have been thinking about starting a nanobrewery for a couple of months now. I have numerous friends and family who have tried my beer and are really encouraging me. I have gotten a couple of requests to provide beer at functions/fundraisers. This would be donated "free" beer, all I would get out of the deal is some exposure for my beer and potential brewery. One of the groups is my local Boys and Girls club fundraiser. They have all the alcohol permits and it is totally legitimate. I am afraid of running afoul of the law before I even get the brewery off the ground. Anybody have any experience with a situation like this. I want to help the local community but....I gotta look out for myself and my dream. Thanks. Al

you may want to post your state as well to help some of the legal gurus. I have no idea

Good idea!! I am in California.

I think your fine unless they are going to sell your donated beer. As long as the have the permits it would be no difference then bringing a case and drinking it. As long as no one is profiting from the beer your good.

Yea if nothing is sold then you are good. Good luck with the nanobrewery.

Please ask the powers that be in your state . Some states limit the amount you can give away.

Possibly legit to give out free at social gatherings, however what happens when "joe the drunk" kills somebody driving home and the family sues you? As a commercial venture you probably had insurance, in this case you might be paying for it the rest of your life.

Check your local ABLE (or otherwise alcohol) laws. Title 37 is our local section regarding the lagality of producing and distributing wine, Cider and/or Beer.

Might not even be legal for it to leave your premise.

samc said:

Possibly legit to give out free at social gatherings, however what happens when "joe the drunk" kills somebody driving home and the family sues you? As a commercial venture you probably had insurance, in this case you might be paying for it the rest of your life.

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That could only happen if the OP was responsible for distributing/serving the beer at the function. Its the bartender that is supposed to cut someone off, not the brewer.

+1 to what others have said. These questions get asked a lot here. We are the the lawmakers of your state. They would be best to answer these questions.

As an example, you would be drawn and quartered by the OLCC in Oregon.

brrman said:

That could only happen if the OP was responsible for distributing/serving the beer at the function. Its the bartender that is supposed to cut someone off, not the brewer.

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Yeah but lawyers will try to sue anyone even remotely involved.

Had a similar situation when a friend asked me to brew for a charity. At first he was going to pay me but I said no way. Then i thought about doing to for free and donating. but I was even skeptical at that for reasons mentioned already above. In the end I suggested for him to contact the local microbrewery and ask them to sponsor. They ended up donating a few kegs of their beer to the event. Everbody wins.

You may even be able to claim the donated beer as a tax write-off!

The fact that they have a liquor license probably works against you. A license requires them to only purchase beer from a distributor which is in turn from a taxable licensed brewery,

Follow this simple analogy; Would it be legal for a licensed bar to freely serve your beer? No.

Call your state's alcohol control board. The org might be able to suspend their license.

In the long run, it doesn't matter if you are within the law or not if your alcohol control board isn't on board. They will make a spot decision and ruin your event and you can only be vindicated at a later date.

If it were me, I would just get a license. They aren't that expensive and will solve any issue. Pretty easy to get in California too, at least comparably.

olllllo said:

The fact that they have a liquor license probably works against you. A license requires them to only purchase beer from a distributor which is in turn from a taxable licensed brewery,

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I don't think this is the case in California. I think you can sell direct.

you cant give away alcohol for free, its illegal. i don't know if this applies to donations to charity or not. if the charity sells the beer to raise money then they are safe. i have no idea if you are safe or not.

Section 23356.2. of the CA Business and Professions Code states that:

(a) No license or permit shall be required for the
manufacture of beer for personal or family use, and not for sale, by
a person over the age of 21 years. The aggregate amount of beer with
respect to any household shall not exceed (1) 200 gallons per
calendar year if there are two or more adults in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult in the
household.

(c) Any beer manufactured pursuant to this section may be removed
from the premises where manufactured for use in competition at
organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, including homemakers'
contests, tastings, or judgings.

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Note the bolded portion and note that you can only remove homebrew from your house for beer competitions, so it appears that it would be illegal to even donate homebrew to a charity event.

olllllo said:

The fact that they have a liquor license probably works against you. A license requires them to only purchase beer from a distributor which is in turn from a taxable licensed brewery,

Follow this simple analogy; Would it be legal for a licensed bar to freely serve your beer? No.

Call your state's alcohol control board. The org might be able to suspend their license.

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This isn't the case in CA.

If this isn't the case in CA, then why don't I hear about homebrewers serving their free beer in bars?

(c) Any beer manufactured pursuant to this section may be removed
from the premises where manufactured for use in competition at
organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, including homemakers'
contests, tastings, or judgings.

dkershner said:

I don't think this is the case in California. I think you can sell direct.

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If he were a license brewery, but he is not. You missed the second point.

I understand what you guys are saying, that you don't need a distributor, but in the case of a direct brewery sale, the brewery is licensed and is the distributor.

You might even want to talk to an attorney about it. Here in GA it not even legal for me to give to my friends. " you may brew up to 50 gallons per year by the head of the household for people who live in the house". good luck on the nano tho, A lot of us on here dream about that kind of stuff.

olllllo said:

(c) Any beer manufactured pursuant to this section may be removed
from the premises where manufactured for use in competition at
organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, including homemakers'
contests, tastings, or judgings

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I love poking holes in loose laws. I do it often. I bolded the parts of interest here. It also may be advantageous to have a "local press rep" at the event as well.

In theory you could get a friend (rival home brewer) to be your "competition" at a "judging". You will probably not be able to sell any of it as you are giving it away for the "competition". You would need to draw up some rules. You would need to have a "ballot box" where the "judges" can vote on who has the better brew! In this case the "Judges" are whomever you need them to be, like the people at the event. Then have one of the local charity people be the "vote counter" and then have a big announcement and "ribbon ceremony" as the last item on the events schedule for the day. Have the "local press rep" snap a pic and run the story. Everyone wins.

BTW the above is legal because you are not doing it on a permanent basis...We have had to jump through other "legal hoops" where I am at for VFW/American Legion events.

On a side note, do you really think the local police dept wants to read the papers headlines the next morning something like: "Police break up charity event fundraiser." ? I do not think so.

Zamial said:

On a side note, do you really think the local police dept wants to read the papers headlines the next morning something like: "Police break up charity event fundraiser." ? I do not think so.

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It depends on location, but around here, it's ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control) that will shut down an event and not the cops. My local ABC is more lenient towards charity events and they don't usually send inspectors out.

It doesn't really matter how you or I read the statutes. It really is up to ABC and how they read this. I've had inspectors tell me I can do one thing and then their managers/directors tell me something completely different. Our attorneys haven't gotten involved yet - in the end, it's just easier for us to go with whatever ABC says.

david_42 said:

As an example, you would be drawn and quartered by the OLCC in Oregon.

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You wouldn't be thrown in jail for it here in Alabama, no you'd be thrown UNDER it. And then fined into oblivion. Then drawn and quartered.

1) The police won't be breaking it up, the Alcohol Control Board Agents will.
2) Alternately the headline could read Agents bust illegal alcohol ring.
3) http://www.examiner.com/x-241-Beer-Examiner~y2009m10d13-Ohio-University-homebrew-crew-busted-after-seemingly-being-set-up-by-officials
4) San Diego recently had all of their commercial tasting rooms shut down for a couple of days by the Health Department, an agency that was later determined to have no jurisdiction.
5) Have you heard about the beer seizures of commercial bars in Philly

These agencies act first and then determine whether they are justified later.

OP contact your board.

OK please allow me a chance to clarify. I was simply pointing out that it seems pretty loosely worded. I am defiantly suggesting contact the appropriate people on this. However, it may take several attempts using the correct "verbiage". I was offering some suggestions on some verbiage to try.

Best of luck!

Definitely check your zoning laws. I can't run any type of manufacturing (that's what I believe making beer would fall under), or basically any commercial enterprise out of my home

olllllo said:

1) The police won't be breaking it up, the Alcohol Control Board Agents will.
......
5) Have you heard about the beer seizures of commercial bars in Philly

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Wasn't the Philly bar State Troopers?

RDWHAHB said:

Wasn't the Philly bar State Troopers?

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I believe in PA those agencies are rolled together, if you're interested in the specifics see Lew Bryson's blog.

In most states, the agencies are separate.

I'll have check out the blog. I thought they had a Liquor Control Board in PA.

Edit: Looks like they were Liquor Control Enforcement (BLCE) Agents. The chauncy aticle I read before called the Troopers. Chaulk one up to the Ollllo.

This is a good podcast on it. I loves me the SIDT guys too.

http://www.shouldidrinkthat.com/main/2010/03/16/episode-61-lew-bryson-interview-philly-beer-raids/

olllllo said:

If this isn't the case in CA, then why don't I hear about homebrewers serving their free beer in bars?

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Because that wouldn't be a profitable bar...

olllllo said:

If this isn't the case in CA, then why don't I hear about homebrewers serving their free beer in bars?

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I can think of several bars/breweries out here where homebrewers "serve" (i.e. give away) their own beer. It's pretty common for someone to come in with a few bottles of X and give it out. Heck, in San Diego, QUAFF does that all the time with homebrew - and they're big (100 people per meeting) very public (i.e. they advertise their meetings regularly, charge dues and give out membership cards) and take place at big bars like Trophy's.

billvon said:

I can think of several bars/breweries out here where homebrewers "serve" (i.e. give away) their own beer. It's pretty common for someone to come in with a few bottles of X and give it out. Heck, in San Diego, QUAFF does that all the time with homebrew - and they're big (100 people per meeting) very public (i.e. they advertise their meetings regularly, charge dues and give out membership cards) and take place at big bars like Trophy's.

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You forgot to mention that the club is mostly comprised of stuck up, snobby *****ebags.

billvon said:

I can think of several bars/breweries out here where homebrewers "serve" (i.e. give away) their own beer. It's pretty common for someone to come in with a few bottles of X and give it out. Heck, in San Diego, QUAFF does that all the time with homebrew - and they're big (100 people per meeting) very public (i.e. they advertise their meetings regularly, charge dues and give out membership cards) and take place at big bars like Trophy's.

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Such an unprofitable move according to doctorRobert. Really? You don't think a bar or restaurant would love to give away free beer occasionally? No business ever offered you a freebie?

I'd like to know the circumstances for that. in AZ we are in the process of negotiating such an arrangement. The deal is, the bar is supposed to call the DLLC and designate a portion of the bar as license free. No commercial beer can go in and no homebrew can come out of that area. That's why I mentioned to the Op that the org may have to suspend it's license.

My guess is that a similar situation exists in CA. Whether QUAFF and that bar follow the wishes of the alcohol board is an enforcement question rather than a legal one,presuming my assumptions are correct. Again the OP should talk to the board about it.

Its entirely legal in mass. And yeah its stupid to give out beer you don't sell. If you're gonna give out beer, at least do beer that's for sale. You really think the average consumer is going to go to your bar, because they're giving out 'homebrewed beer', really? You think that's smart? Most people think home brewed beer is hillybilly moonshine stuff.

Now hosting a brew club is entirely different story.

Gremlyn1 said:

You forgot to mention that the club is mostly comprised of stuck up, snobby *****ebags.

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Now, now. They're not all snobs. Some of them are totally clueless, too. What really pulls the group together is an absence of humor. And there are like 4 I've met so far that I really like. I think they're all pro brewers, too, but whatever.

carnevoodoo said:

Now, now. They're not all snobs. Some of them are totally clueless, too. What really pulls the group together is an absence of humor. And there are like 4 I've met so far that I really like. I think they're all pro brewers, too, but whatever.

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That's why I said 'mostly'

I'm not saying that I'm 100% on any of this, but our club specifically asked Gary Glass about serving homebrew at events, festivals, etc and here's what he said.

I did hear about the AZ Liquor License Control agent shutting down the homebrew booth at a commercial beer festival. I was not at all surprised by
that, as I would imagine this would be an issue in just about any state.
I presume that there is a fee to get into the festival. As long as that
is the case, you will be up against the issue of paying for homebrew.
You've got a public event where people are paying an admission fee to
drink alcohol. I'm not sure how you would draft a bill that the LLC
would agree to that would allow the serving of an unlicensed, untaxed
beverage at such an event. Now if it were a festival where there is no
admission fee, and festival goers pay per drink (such as with tickets or
tokens), you might be able to get away with serving homebrew if you
weren't taking tickets or tokens for samples.

We don't serve homebrew at the Great American Beer Festival for the same
reason AZ LLC won't allow homebrew served at AZ festivals.

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Granted, that's his opinion, but he is the AHA Governmental Affairs guy. If you factually know that this can be done, you shuold probably email him.

Also, in the 4 years that I've been on this board, I've never heard this, plus we've had moderators from MA, so I'm just surprised that it never came up.

Again. I learn stuff every day, so if this is true, I guess I'd like to see some sort of citation or account. That would be good news for homebrewing.