Vienna vs. Munich

Thinking of doing a SMaSH Oktoberfest sometime soon. Would Vienna or Munich serve better as the malt for this recipe? Hop to be used is probably going to be Spalt Select.

Both are great - Vienna will be lighter in color with Munich being a little to a lot darker depending on the specific munich you get. I started using Vienna for all sorts of things - it is a great base malt.

Will one give a maltier sweetness than the other?

Munich will give you a maltier beer... not that the Vienna wouldn't be good, it would!

I vote 100% Munich... I have an Oktoberfest online right now, 100% Munich, 1.060SG... Best beer I have ever made at home, IMO I used the 5-7L Munich that AHS carries, Tett and Spalt hops and S23

Munich will give you more of a "bready" character...think bread crusts. Vienna is similar but more toasty.

It is pretty common to use some vienna as well, although I wouldn't disagree with 100% Munich, either.

Vienna has a very toasty character. I've used it as my base malt before and definitely noticed a pronounced medium toast flavor in the finished product. Munich is similar but has a small amount of "malty-ness" that vienna doesn't. Are you going to do decoctions?

i love vienna malt in most beers, but you should use munich with what you plan. for just malt, go munich

I had not planned on a decoction mash. I am new to all grain, and this is going to be fermented as an ale. Gonna bottle harvest some Pacman and ferment down around 58-60.

For a single malt I would go with Munich. I fear 100% Vienna would be a little plain.

jeepinjeepin said:

For a single malt I would go with Munich. I fear 100% Vienna would be a little plain.

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unless you're going for a SmaSh pale ale

lumpher said:

unless you're going for a SmaSh pale ale

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Been there. Done that. Maris Otter.

Now that I have read up a little on decoction mashes, I am thinking it would be a good idea for a marzen. With modern malts, would a simple, single decoction make a noticeable difference in malt character?

jeepinjeepin said:

Been there. Done that. Maris Otter.

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haven't done that yet. hops and yeast?

urbanmyth said:

Now that I have read up a little on decoction mashes, I am thinking it would be a good idea for a marzen. With modern malts, would a simple, single decoction make a noticeable difference in malt character?

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Decoction was originally done to convert undermodified malts. The melanoidins created were simply a byproduct of the process. The easy way out now is a bit of aromatic or melanoidin malt. That takes you away from a SMaSH though.

lumpher said:

haven't done that yet. hops and yeast?

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It was Argentinian Cascade and a dry yeast. 04, 05, or notty. Can't remember.

maris otter, arg cascade (since it can be subbed with fuggle, i think)... probably nottingham. i think i'll try that

With a good Munich, you can get away with a simple infusion (I do mine 30 minutes at 156-158, 5-10 minute vorlauf, sparge/runoff 60 minutes). Many German brewers, as set in their ways as they are, are beginning to make the change in mashing technique. It is about saving time/labor/energy on the commercial scale, BUT they wouldn't be doing it if the results weren't there. Remember, in the end all that matters is what hits the glass.

urbanmyth said:

Now that I have read up a little on decoction mashes, I am thinking it would be a good idea for a marzen. With modern malts, would a simple, single decoction make a noticeable difference in malt character?

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If you want to do a single decoction, mash in at 144 and hold it for 30 min. Then pull 1/3 of the mash solids using a colander and boil the grain for 30 minutes stirring quite often. You don't want to burn anything here, I would recommend a triclad kettle for this. If you burn anything you are screwed, trust me on this. That flavor even if you pick out all the black will be in the beer forever giving it an ashy, smoked flavor that is strong.

When you add your decoction back in, and if done properly you will be sitting at 158. Rest here for about 30 minutes and mash out or start draining and sparging.

IMHO this is the rest that will give you the malty flavor, and will increase your efficiency. The mash in at 95 and decoct to 122 gives you more clarity. Gelatin can fix this so I don't do it too often.

Let me know if I can help further!

Groovy. Thanks for the tip. Doesn't seem too bad, as long as I can keep it from scorching.

jeepinjeepin said:

For a single malt I would go with Munich. I fear 100% Vienna would be a little plain.

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100% Vienna would be a Vienna Lager, not an Oktoberfest.

I thought ofest was traditionally 100% vienna. Maybe it was denny who said that? I seem to recall a 5 year old thread.... likely nb forum.

StMarcos said:

I thought ofest was traditionally 100% vienna. Maybe it was denny who said that? I seem to recall a 5 year old thread.... likely nb forum.

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I don't know what to think of it. The pictures you see from Oktoberfest all what appear to be beers that are much lighter than 100% munich beers and even a 50% munich beer might be darker (I don't have the same glass so I couldn't say). Almost all of the Oktoberfest we're sold by the micro breweries here in the states are copper to orange in color but I keep seeing fest biers that look in range with a slightly darker Munich Helles in terms of color.






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Also could be the difference in malts. I usually don't see Munich I for sale, it's usually Munich II at 7-8L or American Munich at 10-20L. I guess a Munich I only beer at 5L might be close to the fest beer color.

I used the 5-7L Munich that AHS carries in mine and, though this was in no way a goal, nailed the color of Spaten's Oktoberfest.

The pic above is inconclusive, from what I have read the beer that is most sold at Oktoberfest is Helles now rather than Oktoberfest! I don't have the book handy, but I believe one of the sources was the Classic Styles book for Helles.

100% Vienna will give you a Vienna Lager, 100% Munich will be bordering on a Munich Dunkel, which is not in itself such a bad thing. A true Oktoberfest/Märzen is always part Vienna, part Munich, by changing the ratio of Vienna to Munich you can have it more "Helles-like" (more aromatic, less malty) or more "Dunkel-like" (more malty and less aromatic).
You can't go wrong with Spalter hops, brewing it like an ale on the other hand...

What you actually get served at Oktoberfest is just an Export, i.e. a stronger, version of an Helles. True Märzen beers have become a connoisseur item and are sold almost exclusively bottled.

Decoction mashing is quite time-consuming, you can get good results with a lot less work with the currently available crystal malts. I'd recommend Cara-hell for maltiness and color.

Good luck,

Vale

Correct me if I'm wrong, but brewing at ale temps with an ale yeast should give you an.... ale?

mcnewcp said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but brewing at ale temps with an ale yeast should give you an.... ale?

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I assume you are referring to the pacman at 58-60F?

Yeah it is an ale but pacman is pretty clean, so I'd think it would come out alright. Not quite as clean as a true okoberfest, and probably not the same sulfur character with the yeast, either, but generally close enough not to worry about.

Yeah, pacman will be used (or S-04, if I don't get around to harvesting some pacman), and fermented in my 56ish basement. That is as cold as I can get without it being frozen outside, so I must make do. I know it won't be a true lager, but I frankly don't give a damn this time around Next winter I plan on getting a Craigslist freezer and a temp control device. This year, however, I mainly want to fiddle around with different base malts and hops, so I don't waste the time and energy when brewing the more involved lagers next winter.

Looks like I will be doing a Munich/Spalt SMaSH with a single decoction. I really appreciate the advice, fellow brewers!

Devise a brew using vienna and munich. Use German noble hops and any of the yeast strains mentioned in this thread, ferment cold (57F-60F) and you'll have a very close approximation of a marzen. It won't be completely authentic but I bet you'll fool 3/4 of the people you serve it too. I would add a bit of melanoidin if you aren't going to do a decotion mash. Other than that I think its gonna be a winner. Best of luck to you.

I would use Vienna. If you use munich, use light munich, not munich II

Ended up using 80% Munich 7L, 5% each flaked barley, CaraMunich, CaraVienne and Aromatic. Used Hallertau throughout. Turned out very nicely.

The beer is Rosie's Marzen in my drop down.