Water Heater as HLT
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applescrap
Be the ball!
I haven't stated how i brew fast and no ones asked.......i start with hot water from heater and since on stove it speeds things up and this thread is messing with me...i tasted it and it tastes fine but when we go to Florida i wouldn't use their cold side tap no offense intended....holy cow you couldnt brew with that! I smoke cigars and eat fast food so its not like my body sees no impurities....i like your idea owly and brewing is something i want to simplify....im worried when we get new heater it is going to taste weird....yes the annode goes and glass gives way to rust....good thing our annode was probably gone years ago...hope new heater not weird. Im sure we are all drinking better water than syrian refugee. When i get 240v going might reconsider but it is plausible my hot water heater water tastes better than another states tap
Oh and one last thing I like the tap water if I wanted filtered water I would buy commercial brew I like character
Oh and one last thing I like the tap water if I wanted filtered water I would buy commercial brew I like character
Applesrap, I live in Florida and brew with tap. The water where I'm at is perfect. It is very neutral I can change the profile from a stout to a pale ales with minimum salt additions. ALL municipal water sources are clean! You just have to be smart enough to adjust your water profile to your recipe.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Ok I totally lost your point here?... So why not just drink Natural ice then? seriously if your point is to say you use poor water to make your beer but its better than a refugee drinks your kinda coming off like someone who doesnt care about what the beer tastes like because you just need it to get drunk... I'm not sure what cigars and fast food have to do with it either...
Again the point here is that water from the average hot water tank is full of a higher concentration of dissolved rust and possibly other minerals unless you filter your incoming water, also the ph can be higher due to "degassing" from what I've read in a couple articles...also there often is bacteria that forms in the sediment at the bottom. Higher ph water is bad for efficiency on everything but the porters and stouts. higher mineral content usually makes your lagers and pilsners taste bad. Most brewers here DO care what their beer tastes like...
Again do a search here on ANNODES, you will see that many experimented with them to try to stop the element bases from rusting and they didnt do ****! they were useless.... Most hot water tanks slowly start rusting right away and fail within 5-12 years after rotting out. I already posted a google image link to what the inside of a tank usually look like when cut open.... You really think that makes good beer?
bja
Well-Known Member
Ok, try and think about this. Minerals precipitate out of water when it's heated, but you're saying that the water leaving the heater has a higher concentration of these minerals...
This one is hilarious. The ph rises from "degassing". High ph is bad. Water degasses when it's heated. (See where I'm going here?) Do you not heat your strike water in your HLT?
See my first comment...
I have to agree with other people on this forum. You spew out so much crap that it must be embarrassing sometimes when you go back and reread your own posts.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
You obviously think pretty highly of yourself I'm not even going to bother yelling up to you on that high horse of yours you signature sums you up nicely I'm not sure why you even bother coming here? Is it just to look and talk down to improve your ego?
You seem more hell bent on just trolling and attacking me in multiple threads the last few days than being productive here.
I am trying to be productive in this conversation I do not claim to know everything or be an expert here. you can make you points like an adult without all the childish personal attacks.
By other people Im assuming you mean "Sconnie12", who was bent out of shape when I and all the owners of the products he was bashing didnt see the rusting and cracking issues he was so adamant about being an issue with something he didnt own or have personal experience with?
He then linked a google search full of non related threads to back up his claims when I pointed it out they where not what he assumed and mentioned its not as common as he may thing it is with the larger kettles he just repeated that it was his professional opinion as an engineer... We are all supposed to just ignore our actual experience with these products and listen to him right? Because he doesnt appear to be Biased at all..
I already posted the articles that mentioned the comments about Degassing causing the ph to be higher in water from a hot water tank I commented that it was what I read and assumed it was something that occurred over time unlike water thats heated directly before use...
I can post articles all day that state its not a good idea to consume water from a hot water tank... I guess it would be easy enough for someone to test the water form their hot water tank vs their tap water... I do own a couple ph meters as well as a TDS meter so I will test this out at a friends who has a hot water tank...
I will share this... which may be useful to those that dont already know it all..
From the CDC: "In all situations, drink or cook only with water that comes out of the tap cold. Water that comes out of the tap warm or hot can contain much higher levels of lead. Boiling this water will NOT reduce the amount of lead in your water."
From the EPA: "Only Use Cold Water for Consumption: Use only water from the cold-water tap for drinking, cooking, and especially for making baby formula. Hot water is likely to contain higher levels of lead. The two actions recommended above [i.e., "flushing" water lines with fresh water and using only cold water] are very important to the health of your family. They will probably be effective in reducing lead levels because most of the lead in household water usually comes from the plumbing in your house, not from the local water supply."
From a New York Times article on the subject: "Lead is rarely found in source water, but can enter it through corroded plumbing. The Environmental Protection Agency says that older homes are more likely to have lead pipes and fixtures, but that even newer plumbing advertised as “lead-free” can still contain as much as 8 percent lead. A study published in The Journal of Environmental Health in 2002 found that tap water represented 14 to 20 percent of total lead exposure."
These warnings would not apply if one had plastic plumbing in their residence..
https://www.google.com/search?q=official+about+drinking+water+froma+hot+water+tank&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I read through a handful of these and not one site suggests its a good idea to consume or cook with water from a hot water tank...
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
BTW I and many brewers also add minerals like Calcium carbonate to our RO water in our HLT to increase hardness (which increases PH)... What mineral is a typical hot water tank full of again?
I guess what needs to be determined is if the water in the tank has less of it because the heating process is stripping it or it has more from sitting in a tank full of it at times... my thoughts are that it varies dramatically depending on how much time the water spends in the tank.
I guess what needs to be determined is if the water in the tank has less of it because the heating process is stripping it or it has more from sitting in a tank full of it at times... my thoughts are that it varies dramatically depending on how much time the water spends in the tank.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Ok so I own a duplex and got a sample of both hot water from the tank since I have a tankless in my place and cold from the cold side....... Results were surprising to me. both samples were the same temp when compared just now.
The cold water had slightly MORE TDS (158) the water from the tank had (145) the PH from the cold water side was lower (7.27) vs the hot (7.45) but both reading were close.
Now the taste test... I know this is subjective and has to be taken with a grain of salt but the hot water sample DID have an aftertaste to it for sure that the cold water did not... I would suggest anyone questioning this just try it for themselves...
I was expecting to find more dissolved solids in the hot water than the cold but was proven wrong..
Funny thing is the TDS readings from my tankless water heater were higher than my cold.. ph was the same.
The cold water had slightly MORE TDS (158) the water from the tank had (145) the PH from the cold water side was lower (7.27) vs the hot (7.45) but both reading were close.
Now the taste test... I know this is subjective and has to be taken with a grain of salt but the hot water sample DID have an aftertaste to it for sure that the cold water did not... I would suggest anyone questioning this just try it for themselves...
I was expecting to find more dissolved solids in the hot water than the cold but was proven wrong..
Funny thing is the TDS readings from my tankless water heater were higher than my cold.. ph was the same.
Guys, this is a technical forum. Please keep the posts on topic and helpful. A spirited discussion is fine, but insults and snarky comments are not.
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Owly055
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I remain unmoved after reading all the comments here, and reading the links members so generously provided, none of which really make any valid case against hot water. I do brew with it, and will continue to brew with it. I do however intend to make a Mosaic Rye Wit twice, once starting with cold water, and once with hot water. A very light bodied pale low gravity brew. I'll do it with my next two brews maintaining very close process control.
I once previously mentioned the very observable fact that your drip coffee maker will not lime up as quickly if you fill it with hot water as it will if you fill it with cold. I discovered this (a tip from a friend) many years ago when I lived where the water was more mineralized than my current well water which is extremely high quality. It's a test any one of us can do, and it does confirm the very obvious fact that the mineral which accumulates in your water heater is removed from the water that passes through it. It doesn't start new with a huge accumulation and gradually lose it...... It starts out clean and it gradually builds up..... It's kind of a no-brainer in my book.
H.W.
I once previously mentioned the very observable fact that your drip coffee maker will not lime up as quickly if you fill it with hot water as it will if you fill it with cold. I discovered this (a tip from a friend) many years ago when I lived where the water was more mineralized than my current well water which is extremely high quality. It's a test any one of us can do, and it does confirm the very obvious fact that the mineral which accumulates in your water heater is removed from the water that passes through it. It doesn't start new with a huge accumulation and gradually lose it...... It starts out clean and it gradually builds up..... It's kind of a no-brainer in my book.
H.W.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I dont think anyone was trying to say a new hot water tank starts out new with a huge accumulation... All I myself was trying to say is the accumulation happens and they do rust inside regardless of annodes or not. depending on water ph and mineral content this happens for some much faster than others...
Can we at least agree on this? If you want I can pull up some threads where people installed the annodes in thier HLT and boil kettles to stop element bases from rusting and they had no effect. they may be somewhat effective for some in a HWT but I still think if most people were to peek in their tanks right now they would find rust and sediment regardless of whether there is bacteria present or not depending on temp setpoint.
bja
Well-Known Member
Do you know why?
Boil kettles and HLT's are drained and allowed to dry and the anode is no longer protecting anything. This is when the rust develops.
A HWT is never drained, so the anode is always decomposing and doing it's job.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
No, I was not aware of that but it does make sense now that you explain it.
I assume the magnesium annode dissolving in the water tank has no negative affects on the flavor of the beer? Or could that be some of the aftertaste I picked up? to be fair the apartment next store has been empty since im remodeling so for the most part that water has been in the tank for longer than normal since the hot water isnt being used much.
FloppyKnockers
Well-Known Member
If I can jump in on the whole anode rod thing. Anode rods are made out of either zinc, magnesium, or aluminium. These are less noble metals than the steel tank it's in. Therefor, any corrosion or oxidation effects the anode rod instead of the tank for the life of the anode rod. Furthermore, the material of the anode rod should not negatively effect the taste or quality of the water. Contrarily, I've replaced aluminum and magnesium anode rods with their zinc counterparts. In some water municipalities there is a anaerobic bacteria that reacts with the aluminium and magnesium causing a 'rotten egg' smell.
I'd also like to point out that it's not a hot water heater. It doesn't heat hot water. It heats water... It's a water heater.
Okay, carry on. This is the funniest argument I've read on here in a while.
I'd also like to point out that it's not a hot water heater. It doesn't heat hot water. It heats water... It's a water heater.
Okay, carry on. This is the funniest argument I've read on here in a while.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Why is it so funny? You dont see a downside of using what could very possibly look like this for brewing water storage? How many people here can honestly tell me they change or even check the Anodes in their water heater tanks? I bet the majority here have never done so. granted this is an extreme case below but still who knows what kind of shape the inside of ones water heater is in?
I kinda find it funny that such a concern is made over a little rust that may be form on an electric element in an electric BK of HLT to the point that special all stainless based elements are now made for home brewers yet being concerned over this is silly?
1977Brewer
Free Dan Hess.
I didn't even know anodes existed until yesterday. Small sample size, but we're at 0% thus far.
LoneTreeFarms
Well-Known Member
i don't see it mentioned here, but anode rods can be cut out of hot water heaters we did it to our new one a few years ago. that being said there's a new brewery opening up near me where the guy is planning on using an all stainless hot water heater for his strike water. I've seen it, but didn't pay too much attention to it. next time I talk to him I can get more of the specifics if anyone is interested.
FloppyKnockers
Well-Known Member
It's funny that people are arguing and name calling over water heaters. I don't think anybody in this thread ever eluded to using your junkyard find to store brew water. In fact, on the first page I replied to the OP that if you get a new water heater I didn't see any problems.
And, yes. There's a huge downside with using the water heater in the picture you provided. There's a big hole in the side. The water won't stay in.
Somebody stole my old water heart and cut a hole in it! Those bastards!
Just kidding. Mine was a gas heater and it created it's own hole.
FYI there was so much accumulation in the thing that I had to pound a screwdriver in to the hole where the drain valve used to be in order to drain the water out before I hauled it out of the basement. It was probably 2-3 inches thick. Turns out all the water had leaked out of it from the big rusty hole in the side.
Just kidding. Mine was a gas heater and it created it's own hole.
FYI there was so much accumulation in the thing that I had to pound a screwdriver in to the hole where the drain valve used to be in order to drain the water out before I hauled it out of the basement. It was probably 2-3 inches thick. Turns out all the water had leaked out of it from the big rusty hole in the side.
bja
Well-Known Member
Is it too late to patent this?
Its pretty obvious the OP didnt want any opinions and just wanted praise for an idea that very few people think is a good one.
Bottom line is most brewers that care about the taste of their beer would never consider using a standard water heater. Mainly because an old saying that if the water doesnt taste good your beer wont taste good and most of us agree that hot water from a heater tastes like crap.
My proposal in response to the OP is get yourself a large SS pot, install a heating element with a controller and use that. The cost will be close to a new water heater and you can drain and clean between brew days.
Its a much better solution and wont give you crappy tasting water that an enclosed water heater would.
Bottom line is most brewers that care about the taste of their beer would never consider using a standard water heater. Mainly because an old saying that if the water doesnt taste good your beer wont taste good and most of us agree that hot water from a heater tastes like crap.
My proposal in response to the OP is get yourself a large SS pot, install a heating element with a controller and use that. The cost will be close to a new water heater and you can drain and clean between brew days.
Its a much better solution and wont give you crappy tasting water that an enclosed water heater would.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The thing is that despite what your suggesting water heater didnt get corroded like that from being in the junkyard at least for the most part.... it was like that (Besides the hole cut in it
) while in use, and for the average person who has a hot water tank they are not brand new or not new for long... So unless you plan on replacing it every year there's a good chance it not nice and clean inside but rather rusty and loaded with sediment. Some people are either intentionally dancing around this just to argue or there is two conversations going on here... I understand a new water heater would be fine... my concern and comment were in regard to the majority of them found in a home brewers home that aren't new and they wont stay that way for long.Way back on that first page when you made the comment (That I agree with BTW) it was pretty apparent by his comments at the time that Owly055 was not talking about a "New" water heater specifically..his comments actually then Very much eluded to using any old water heater stating they actually made the water cleaner. That story seemed to change when he stated he was talking about using a new heater much later in the thread.. other member here picked up on that as well and pointed it out.
Based on this discussion, I put a glass of hot water and a glass of cold water in the fridge last night, they taste the same to me.
The heater is a little over a year old. To get the old one out of the basement, I cut it in pieces, and yes it looked like the photo above.
For anyone on city water, have you ever seen the inside of a water main? Sediment and mineral deposits are common.
I'll confess, I have brewed with the hot water.....
The heater is a little over a year old. To get the old one out of the basement, I cut it in pieces, and yes it looked like the photo above.
For anyone on city water, have you ever seen the inside of a water main? Sediment and mineral deposits are common.
I'll confess, I have brewed with the hot water.....
bja
Well-Known Member
Hmm, I'm still waiting for the "you poisoned your beer with hot tap water" replies...
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Owly055
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The thing is that despite what your suggesting water heater didnt get corroded like that from being in the junkyard at least for the most part.... it was like that (Besides the hole cut in it
Way back on that first page when you made the comment (That I agree with BTW) it was pretty apparent by his comments at the time that Owly055 was not talking about a "New" water heater specifically..his comments actually then Very much eluded to using any old water heater stating they actually made the water cleaner. That story seemed to change when he stated he was talking about using a new heater much later in the thread.. other member here picked up on that as well and pointed it out.
Please provide the quotes where I "eluded" to using any old water heater....... That was your illusion, not my allusion. Perhaps you need to work on you English a tad ;-) Please stop spreading your illusions about my allusions, and discontinue your elusion of responsibility for misrepresenting my words, and let others draw their conclusions from my actual words.
Seriously, I have a difficult time understanding how you reach the conclusion that water coming from the hot water tap is less pure than water from the cold tap.....it's pretty obvious that the deposits you see are deposits of material that has been removed from the water along with a bit of rust, which also is in the deposits not in the water. I personally would be far more concerned about all the junk that's slipping by the cold water tap, than what's been removed by the water heater. It's pretty obvious that your hot water is considerably more pure than your cold water. Every pound of junk deposited in the water heater is a pound of junk that didn't end up in your hot water and did end up in your cold water. That's a pretty inescapable conclusion if you look at it with any degree of intellectual honesty! I can only imagine what your innards look like if you've been drinking the cold water from your tap!!
H.W.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
This quote suggests that using a water heat water heater purifies the water. and that you drink from it everyday when making your coffee. It doesnt say anything about a new water heater... When another member chimes in about it being unwise unless its a new heater you remained silent about it. In fact that isnt mentioned at all until later in the thread When another person who gets the same impression that your taking about an existing water heater chimes in and you then state it would be a new install..
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
There it is again... That looks like your referencing your existing hot water heater and not a brand new one... especially since you made no reference to that at all until enough people advised against what you originally proposed...and then theres the whole lead from your pipes factor if your house was built before 1986
Stop applying CPR to this thread and let it die in peace.
Whatever point there was to be made must've been made by now...
Cheers!
Whatever point there was to be made must've been made by now...
Cheers!
FloppyKnockers
Well-Known Member
I already made the point...it was about potatoes.....a mod deleted it.
1977Brewer
Free Dan Hess.
FloppyKnockers
Well-Known Member
Well said.
augiedoggy
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I have to agree.. I was just defending my comment.
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Owly055
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My friend who just started brewing cranked his water heater up to 170, and it hits the mash tun at almost exactly 162, dropping 10 deg when the grain is added. Yesterday he did a mash like this..... leaving it all afternoon while he was at work, doing his boil when he got home....... a full hour boil. He's doing an odd batch size with 5 gallons of strike water.... I don't know what his batch in the fermenter is.......... He's still trying to figure his equipment out.... It's only his third brew. He's boiling on a outdoor turkey fryer burner. I'm going to talk to him about making a shield to reduce the time to boil.
H.W.
H.W.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Thats just awesome. ....so just let it sit all day ehh...i still dont get it
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Seems like a lot of wasted energy costs just to save 30 minutes on a brewday.. thats just my thoughts though... I brew for fun as a hobby though so the process doesn't bother me. Also I dont brew every other day like some here with iron livers... maybe it does make sense then.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Im sure you are not alone....once im set up if i can be pretty quick i might use cold tap water because the tank is a little sketchy and i trust the cdc...i personally dont like the word brewday....its not a big trip to me....i brew i drink i brew. I dont have a smoker day either...i throw stuff in smoker and i smoke it. i brew when i feel like it. i have kids i don't want to spend a day doing anything other than golfing or loving them. I can't fault anyone for wanting to spend five or six hours brewing I spend five or six hours golfing many of you would see that as a waste of time....i have other stuff to do and family comes first so hot water works for now....when i get older maybe retire perhaps i might change...i have been drinking craft beers for over 22 years the beer i brew is killer and is done and cleaned up in 3.5 hours why would I want to make it longer....the water tastes good to me i trust my tongue. My next beer that founders Breakfast i am assuming would be difficult to taste to much through all that coffee and chocolate....i think the process is somewhat forgiving.....i appreciate your honesty
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Owly055
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"wasted energy", "iron livers", implications that people who want to save time on brew day must not enjoy brewing. You have fallen into slanders and distortions, first presenting arguments that you could not in any way support, having to do of all things with your goldfish, and cut away photos of water heaters. Suggesting that I had advocating hauling water heaters out of the junk yard to use for HLTs, and implying that because I use my household water heater on every brew, this somehow supports that absurd assertion. My 2.5 to 3 gallon brews on a weekly basis (which I share with friends), makes me a hopeless alcoholic with an "iron liver".... compared to someone who brews 11 gallons once a month, and obviously I must not like brewing or enjoy the process, as I seek to reduce my brew day. And of course there is the absurd assertion about energy efficiency. Get real. It is the heating season. Where is energy wasted? Last time I checked most water heaters were in the house..... Is energy released in the house wasted or lost? Consider the fact that every BTU that finds its way into the house from the water heater is a BTU that the furnace doesn't have to produce....... DO YOU live in the real world? Consider also the fact that he turns the heater up in the morning when he gets up on brew day, and turns it down after drawing his strike water. Consider also the fact that he heats outdoors with a propane burner, at current ambient temps of below freezing, using a barbeque bottle from the local exchange..... At around a dollar a pound for propane (4.25 pounds per gallon)... Do the math.
The fact is that you have been dragging this thread down with absurd unsupported nonsense from your first post. It was intended to be a real fact based discussion of the advantages and disadvantages or that strategy and you have made a determined and successful effort to reduce it to the level of an adolescent food fight.
Your turn.......... get the last word in. You are making an ass of yourself!!
H.W.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Your being ridiculous. Don't get your panties in a bunch. I never said anything about hauling things out of the garbage. I posted a picture of a used hot water tank that was at the end of its life and was cut open to show how they corrode to get to that point over their lifespan I assumed you were bright enough to figure out just as I assumed you understood that it takes a lot more electric or gas to keep the average 40 gallon household hot water tank at 170 degrees instead of 120..I don't know How you installed your hot water tank but most are vented so the heat from the gas goes right out a chimney or power vent, hardly using the energy wisely to heat your house.
I also linked information from the aquarium community to show the water from a hot water tank is not as wonderful as you think I guess you didn't see the connection but if it messes up an aquarium by causing alge blooms and making fish sick it also probably not as good as a basis for beer as the coldtap water.
Your posts usually have a common theme and that it making your brewing time as simplified and short as possible, thats usually the motivation behind making a chore less work. If I were chef and I went on bragging about how I buy all my veggies prechopped and save a ton of time by throwing it in the microwave instead of wasting time with a stove or oven would you get the impression that I enjoyed my profession ? The average person probably doesn't.
Your the one who changed gears mid thread regarding using an existing household hot water tank vs a new dedicated once it was pointed out that it's not a good idea in houses with copper plumbing, but yeah that info is somehow gibberish because it was not the "facts" you were looking for right? ... You want to discuss only the facts as you see them.
And yes I live in the real world... I use electric to brew indoors myself...costs under a dollar in electricity to heat my hlt... I would thinkif it was such a hardship to brew outdoors with propane then maybe the stove would be a better option? After all it's just water? Especially if it's only 3 gallons like you brew.
I also linked information from the aquarium community to show the water from a hot water tank is not as wonderful as you think I guess you didn't see the connection but if it messes up an aquarium by causing alge blooms and making fish sick it also probably not as good as a basis for beer as the coldtap water.
Your posts usually have a common theme and that it making your brewing time as simplified and short as possible, thats usually the motivation behind making a chore less work. If I were chef and I went on bragging about how I buy all my veggies prechopped and save a ton of time by throwing it in the microwave instead of wasting time with a stove or oven would you get the impression that I enjoyed my profession ? The average person probably doesn't.
Your the one who changed gears mid thread regarding using an existing household hot water tank vs a new dedicated once it was pointed out that it's not a good idea in houses with copper plumbing, but yeah that info is somehow gibberish because it was not the "facts" you were looking for right? ... You want to discuss only the facts as you see them.
And yes I live in the real world... I use electric to brew indoors myself...costs under a dollar in electricity to heat my hlt... I would thinkif it was such a hardship to brew outdoors with propane then maybe the stove would be a better option? After all it's just water? Especially if it's only 3 gallons like you brew.
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