Fermentation didn't start

Ok Last monday I brewed an all grain wheat beer, used WL 380, pitched it direct, I make a starter most of the time, but brewed in a whim so didn't this time.A day later nothing, the next day nothing.So I took a pac of wyeast dennys favorite out , let it swell and pitched it, 2 days later no action in the airlock, but there is krausen, but no blow off at all, Any ideas on this? I have never had this problem, but this is my first wheat beer what did I do wrong?....B....

If you have krausen, then you probably have fermentation right? Have you taken a gravity reading and compared it to your OG? It might be doing more than you think in there.

I had a brown ale from an extract recipe I made with a friend in a Better Bottle this fall that didn't look like it was doing anything for 4 days after pitching. I went and talked to the guy at my LHBS and he asked where my gravity was. I bought a Hydrometer and went back home to check it. It was down to 1.018 after 4 days, but had no krausen or ring around the carboy, and I never saw it bubble.

If you have krausen, then the yeast are busy at work.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE realize that airlock bubbling and fermentation are not the same thing. You have to separate that from your mindset. Airlock bubbling can be a sign of fermentation, but not a good one, because the airlock will often blip or not blip for various other reasons...so it is a tenuous connection at best.

If your airlock was bubbling and stopped---It doesn't mean fermentation has stopped.

If you airlock isn't bubbling, it doesn't mean your fermentation hasn't started....

If your airlock starts bubbling, it really doesn't matter.

If your airlock NEVER bubbles, it doesn't mean anything is wrong or right.

Your airlock is not a fermentation gauge, it is a VALVE to release excess co2. If it bubbles it is because it needs to, if it doesn't, it just means it doesn't need to...

You had Krauzen, THAT is a sign that fermentation is happening, NOT whether or not a cheap plastic airlock goes blip or not.....

Again, if you separate the idea of airlock bubbling from fermentation, you worry less about crap like this.

Thanks for the replies,I'm gonna wait until I transfer to a secondary and than take a gravity reading,I've just never had one ferment like this.....B....

ok so my next question,I started out with white labs 380,than when I paniced and thought fermentation hadn't started I pitched the pac of wyeast dennys favorite.
So whats this gonna do to my finished product?
Change the flavor?.....B....

brianroberts said:

ok so my next question,I started out with white labs 380,than when I paniced and thought fermentation hadn't started I pitched the pac of wyeast dennys favorite.
So whats this gonna do to my finished product?
Change the flavor?.....B....

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The ways of the yeast are mysterious, no one can tell you exactly how these two strains are going to interact, there are too many variables and unknowns. But I think we can all agree that pitching two different strains of yeast, at different times, will impact the finished product.

Good that you realized you panicked. Next time, take a gravity reading before thinking about re-pitching. As Revvy says, every fermentation is different and sometimes it can come and go without much of a show.

I just brewed 4 batches back to back for my graduation party. It was a great experiment in RDWHAHB!!! Every single fermentation behaved differently. 2 took off like crazy, 1 of those was steady blowing krausen out the airlock, 1 never showed any airlock activity, and 1 took longer than usual to fire off but fermentation was never overly vigorous. They all hit very close to target FG, they all made beer, and more importantly, they all made GREAT BEER!!!!

Your new mantra...RDWHAHB, RDWHAHB, RDWHAHB, RDWHAHB, RDWHAHB

Yes you don't need bubbles in the airlock to have fermentation, however unless you counter filled the fermenter with N2 or CO2 (don't do that btw) you have O2 at the top head space. Not having bubbles in the airlock also means that the O2 wasn't pushed out and now there is an increased potential for your beer tasting more cardboard like.

What you didn't have is a 'healthy' fermentation. Several things could have caused that.

1. Not enough viable yeast cells
2. Not enough O2 during the growth phase to build up yeast count.
3. Not enough vitamins/nutrients (Zn, Mg, Ca, etc)
4. Not enough lipids to build cell walls
5. Low Amino Acids and malting and mashing
6. Low simple sugar for fermentation.
7. Large/quick temperature changes, or too hot at pitch.

or everything happened normally and your bucket lid just does not seal very well. I have one bucket with a ratcheting twist-on lid that I really have to crank on to get it to seal. I like to test the seal after closing up by pushing down with one finger on the lid. If I get a blip, then the seal is good.

gratefuldisc said:

or everything happened normally and your bucket lid just does not seal very well. I have one bucket with a ratcheting twist-on lid that I really have to crank on to get it to seal. I like to test the seal after closing up by pushing down with one finger on the lid. If I get a blip, then the seal is good.

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Yes good point.

jitteringjr said:

Yes you don't need bubbles in the airlock to have fermentation, however unless you counter filled the fermenter with N2 or CO2 (don't do that btw) you have O2 at the top head space. Not having bubbles in the airlock also means that the O2 wasn't pushed out and now there is an increased potential for your beer tasting more cardboard like..

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I don't agree. Most of the time an airlock doesn't bubble simply because it is getting out someplace else, like in the grommet, or it has just managed to fill the headspace but not enough to void EXCESS. There can be plenty of co2 in the space protecting the beer whether or not the airlock blips.

We don't need to add oxydation fear to the alread noob nerves of not having an airlock bubbled.

After thousands of gallons of beer I've brewed, I still have had about a 50/50 airlock bubble/not bubble rate. And I've NEVER had cardboard beer in those batches where the airlock didn't bubble.


Sorry, but I don't buy your premise.

Revvy said:

I don't agree. Most of the time an airlock doesn't bubble simply because it is getting out someplace else, like in the grommet, or it has just managed to fill the headspace but not enough to void EXCESS. There can be plenty of co2 in the space protecting the beer whether or not the airlock blips.

We don't need to add oxydation fear to the alread noob nerves of not having an airlock bubbled.

After thousands of gallons of beer I've brewed, I still have had about a 50/50 airlock bubble/not bubble rate. And I've NEVER had cardboard beer in those batches where the airlock didn't bubble.


Sorry, but I don't buy your premise.

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+1 Revvy, you beat me to it!!!

Revvy said:

I don't agree. Most of the time an airlock doesn't bubble simply because it is getting out someplace else, like in the grommet,

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I addressed that thanks to gratefuldisc. However, having an improperly sealed fermenter isn't a good thing either.

Revvy said:

or it has just managed to fill the headspace but not enough to void EXCESS. There can be plenty of co2 in the space protecting the beer whether or not the airlock blips.

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Sorry but that makes no sense; based on the 'or' part of your sentence meaning that there was a proper seal on the fermenter. The new CO2 would have to displace O2 (and other molecules in air) and thus be released somewhere and the only somewhere it could be with a properly sealed fermenter would be the airlock. If this were not the case then the fermenter would built up a positive pressure as if it were completely sealed.

Revvy said:

We don't need to add oxydation fear to the alread noob nerves of not having an airlock bubbled.

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It is worse yet letting him think this is OK and living with it rather than helping him correct the issue.

Revvy said:

After thousands of gallons of beer I've brewed, I still have had about a 50/50 airlock bubble/not bubble rate. And I've NEVER had cardboard beer in those batches where the airlock didn't bubble.

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Flexing your experience muscle doesn't make it correct. However since you went there, I have been home brewing for 12 years and work at a commercial brewery where we see millions of barrels. We expect to see 2.5 volumes of CO2 per volume of beer and that number is also supported by the IBD so it is international. I have only had one 1 brew at home where it didn't bubble and it tasted like crap.

jitteringjr said:

I addressed that thanks to gratefuldisc. However, having an improperly sealed fermenter isn't a good thing either..

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I'm only gonna address this one, since some of your tone is downright rude...I wasn't rude in my post, I simply said I didn't buy your argument. And have had differnet experiences in a lot of batches, as have many many others on here.

We say here all the time, if co2 is getting out someplace, 02 is not getting in. It's that simple.

There is STILL no need to worry if an airlock isn't bubbling.

Many people simply put lexan sheets on top of buckets instead of lids and airlocks, letting the co2 get out in the gap between the top and the bucket lip. Others leave their bucket lids on losely. Many on here use tinfoil on their carboys instaid of a bug.

Midwest supplies just released a vent stopper making an airlock totally obsolete.

The things that could possibly get into a fermenter and cause problems are not ninja accrobats. If Co2 is getting out...then those things can't get in.

We, on here have been answering this very question on here 5-10 times a day for years. and contrary to what you may be convinced, there haven't been a rash of bad fermentations or infections because an airlock isn't blipping.

In fact 99.5% if the time, then OP has come back and said, either their gravity was fine, and the beer was fermenting along happily, and they worried for nothing, or their beer turned out fine, with no infection or issues. And they thanked us for THIS advice.

We wouldn't be giving this advice, if we didn't trust it. And if we hadn't faced this same issue, thousands, if not 10s of thousands of times on here.

I didn't get this postcount playing stupid word games, I got it from helping people and giving them the same advice day in and day out...AND getting feedback day in and day out....If something comes up wrong, or incorrect then it doesn't get given. Snce I get the feedback from all the threads I post in (I subsribe to all my threads), I SEE what the results of my advice...

You may not agree with it...But I stand by it. It's worked for other brewers on here, long before you came upon it....

jitteringjr said:

I have only had one 1 brew at home where it didn't bubble and it tasted like crap.

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And I've had several hundred batches where the airlock never bubbled (as I've been chronicaling for as long as I've been on here) that have turned out fine. So you are basing this whole argument on THAT??

I also bet the reason the one beer you had where the "airlock didn't bubble and your beer tasted like crap" tasted that way for some other reason not because your silly airlock didn't bubble.....I've managed to win awards for beers that never had a blip in the airlock.

I would look up the phrase under my sigline if I were you. More than likely you made a "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc" connection to your beer not turning out. And missed the REAL reason it tasted like crap...

Revvy said:

I'm only gonna address this one, since some of your tone is downright rude...I wasn't rude in my post, I simply said I didn't buy your argument. And have had differnet experiences in a lot of batches, as have many many others on here.

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First off, let me apologize as I wasn't meaning to be rude. I am sorry for sounding that way.

Revvy said:

We say here all the time, if co2 is getting out someplace, 02 is not getting in. It's that simple.

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This is in direct opposition to our thoughts at work. If product can get out, air can get in. Depending on the point in the yeast life cycle, there are times where the risk is greater.

Ultimately as homebrewers still have yeast in their end product, O2 becomes less of a concern with cardboard taste, and that is probably the main reason people don't complain about the taste of their beer. However, I still think there is room for improvement if people aren't getting bubbles out of an airlock. At some point people may want to filtrate to the micron level to remove the yeast from their beer and at that point they could see an improvement. Its not about being right or wrong on a forum, it is about making the best beer possible and keeping a close eye on our fermentations and possible O2 contaminations helps make better beer

I agree that the best practice is to have a tight seal on your fermentation vessel, which would lead to airlock activity. In reality, many buckets just don't have a tight seal (and good/great beer gets made anyway.) I had a bucket that wouldn't seal properly, and that is one of the reasons I don't use buckets - I want to know that the seal is tight.

The issue Revvy is talking about is not just 'best practice', though - he's addressing the issue of new brewers panicking when they don't have airlock activity 4 hours after pitching. While we could feed their panic, IMHO its more helpful to them to tell them to chillax. They end up making good beer and go on to brew another day.

jitteringjr said:

Ultimately as home brewers still have yeast in their end product, O2 becomes less of a concern with cardboard taste, and that is probably the main reason people don't complain about the taste of their beer. However, I still think there is room for improvement if people aren't getting bubbles out of an airlock. At some point people may want to filtrate to the micron level to remove the yeast from their beer and at that point they could see an improvement. Its not about being right or wrong on a forum, it is about making the best beer possible and keeping a close eye on our fermentations and possible O2 contaminations helps make better beer

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Sorry, just silly. I have never filtered my beer, ever

Pappers said:

I agree that the best practice is to have a tight seal on your fermentation vessel, which would lead to airlock activity. In reality, many buckets just don't have a tight seal (and good/great beer gets made anyway.) I had a bucket that wouldn't seal properly, and that is one of the reasons I don't use buckets - I want to know that the seal is tight.

The issue Revvy is talking about is not just 'best practice', though - he's addressing the issue of new brewers panicking when they don't have airlock activity 4 hours after pitching. While we could feed their panic, IMHO its more helpful to them to tell them to chillax. They end up making good beer and go on to brew another day.

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+1 On this.

Revvy is talking about dealing with folk on here who are doing their very first brews. They panic. We've all panicked! My first primary was a bucket with a plastic bag and an elastic band (The way it was sold to me in on 86-87 ish). Still made good beer.

On behalf of my good friend Revvy, I apologize if he seems, well lets say grumpy, too someone who is new to the forum. If you check his posts and threads you will see he really does know what he is talking about.

He really has been giving the same advice and having the same discussion (Some try to turn to argument) as before. One of the hardest things to realize a lot of your questions have been discussed before. Google Revvy Search

I think the point I'm trying to make is the new folks jump in and want to ask their questions, and that is fine. But, the original sticky's are still there saying please search before asking. Some of the Senior brewers don't bother answering anymore because some new guy knows what he knows and wants to argue and not listen

If you are new please lurk before you post and be kind to the good Revvy

Revvy is one of the few guys who comes back for more

There are many commercial and home brewers that use open fermentation vessels.

FUD is a bad thing.

Revvy said:

And I've had several hundred batches where the airlock never bubbled (as I've been chronicaling for as long as I've been on here) that have turned out fine. So you are basing this whole argument on THAT??

I also bet the reason the one beer you had where the "airlock didn't bubble and your beer tasted like crap" tasted that way for some other reason not because your silly airlock didn't bubble.....I've managed to win awards for beers that never had a blip in the airlock.

I would look up the phrase under my sigline if I were you. More than likely you made a "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc" connection to your beer not turning out. And missed the REAL reason it tasted like crap...

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I think you bring up a very valid point here so I checked my brew log. The brew I was referring to was my 3rd ever brew back in May 99. It was a milk stout.

A little more background. My first 2 brews I have listed as "rancid, acidic" Knowing what I know now, I would chalk them up to pedio and/or lacto. I brewed them from kits "Muntons" and I only used the instructions in the can which I still have stapled to my brew log.

The 3 brew. The one in question was my first drinkable brew, but I have listed 'stale, cardboard' for it. Interestingly this was the first brew I did after reading Charlie Papazian's Home Brewers Companion, my first ever home brew book. Now to me this means some kind of O2 contamination. It didn't have to be from the primary, but it couldn't be from the secondary. I didn't have one yet. It could have been from the primary to the bottling bucket or from there to the bottles though.

Then after talking with the dude at the LHBS in Richmond VA, he suggested rapidly swirling the primary. So I have been doing this ever since then for about a 30 count. I also went to glass for the 4th brew. A very timely post was posted today from GroosBrewz about aeration.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/aeration-methods-required-times-explained-wyeast-208511/

Watch the Wyeast youtube video:

Now considering I have been doing this for that long (for a little less duration)
and have since have not had a rolling/bubbling fermentation, I think a lot of these "What's wrong with my fermentation" threads would go away if this was in the Papazian eta all books on homebrewing. That guy in Richmond really gave me a good tip, IMHO

Sure I have had less than desirable brews since that 3rd brew. I have lost a few more to Pedio and Lacto and some more have not came out as formulated, but never a stale, cardboard flavor.

Wyldjim said:

Sorry, just silly. I have never filtered my beer, ever

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Never, say never. I am sure there are thousands of homebrewers out there who went to start their own brew pup/ micro brewery or went to work at a commercial brewery. It could be at one point, you will be getting paid to make bright beer in one form or another.

Wyldjim said:

On behalf of my good friend Revvy, I apologize if he seems, well lets say grumpy, too someone who is new to the forum. If you check his posts and threads you will see he really does know what he is talking about.

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He definitely knows what he is talking about. At the same time I can agree to disagree on one of his posts. With nearly 25K posts, he clearly has a history of helping fellow home brewers.

Wyldjim said:

If you are new please lurk before you post and be kind to the good Revvy

Revvy is one of the few guys who comes back for more

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Just an FYI I have been lurking since ~2006. I joined another brew forum a year before Revvy

http://apps.thebrewhut.com/tbhforum.net/default.aspx?g=posts&t=2274

For what ever reason that I am not even sure about, I haven't joined this forum until now nor did I really frequent that forum.

iijakii said:

There are many commercial and home brewers that use open fermentation vessels.

FUD is a bad thing.

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They all pretty much do it under controlled circumstances. I am going to throw an assumption out there that most noob home brewers didn't bleach the ceiling of the room they are fermenting in nor do they HEPA filter the incoming air.

Lindemans does it through a hole at the top of the barrels being foam (Kräusen) covered to keep O2 and bacteria out.
http://www.lindemans.be/start/lambik/en

You can also check out Burton Unions:


and Yorkshire Squares
http://www.merchantduvin.com/pages/5_breweries/samsmith_yorkshire.html

There are definitely times where you can use these techniques to your advantage depending on what you are going after.

Ok thanks for all the good replies,let me point out a few thing,the bucket seals very well,I saw no fermentation on day 2 thats when I ptched the wyeast Dennys favorite,I still saw No "bulging" of the bucket lid or Co2 excaping through the air loc.
Everything was done right,yeast pitched the 1st time at 70 degrees,yeast was warmed up to room temp,yada,yada.I have done a dozen or so batches of all grain never had a problem,always had good fermentation,however this was the 1st time I pitched WL straight in to the primary,also was my 1st wheat beer.So I just didn't know.....B....

I'm not an expert of wheat beers so maybe the other guys on the forum can better go at this, but I have brewed with wheat a couple of times.

Did you hit your target OG? Which was?

If you were low, my LHBS sells an unmalted wheat. I nearly mistook it once.

Also wheat is high in protein. Did you do a protease hold ~50C? (I don't think that is vital, but helpful)

I have done a protease hold and then a simple decoction when using wheat. I use a cooler mash tun so I can't add direct heat. I strike at ~58C depending on grain bill and then hold for 20 min. Then I pull off a calculated amount off to boil to bring the mash up to Sach temp.

Like I said I don't brew with wheat often though so others may give better advice for mashing.

If you had a good OG then none of this would really apply.

Did you watch the Wyeast youtube video I linked indirectly to?

brianroberts said:

. . . point out a few thing,the bucket seals very well,I saw no fermentation on day 2 thats when I ptched the wyeast Dennys favorite,I still saw No "bulging" of the bucket lid or Co2 excaping through the air lock . . .

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Of course I can't say for sure that your bucket isn't sealing, but you can't tell by looking at the lid whether it is sealing tightly or not. For example, I had a bucket where the lid both looked tight and was a PIA to get off because it was tight, but it wasn't airtight - I know this because CO2 was leaking out somewhere other than through the airlock. If you have no airlock activity and fermentation is happening, there is likely a leak somewhere.

As Revvy suggested, that's not a big deal, just an explanation.

Also wheat is high in protein. Did you do a protease hold ~50C?

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OK both me and you live in the USA,so enough with the celciuis crap,same with the metric crap,I don't know what temp 50 C is ,but I know what 100F is,So start talking english,ok? ....B....

brianroberts said:

OK both me and you live in the USA,so enough with the celciuis crap,same with the metric crap,I don't know what temp 50 C is ,but I know what 100F is,So start talking english,ok? ....B....

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That was remarkably inappropriate.

Pappers said:

That was remarkably inappropriate.

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+1 Pappers...if you can't be bothered to convert someone's suggestion, you probably can't be bothered to implement the suggestions being offered to make good beer. Ethnocentrism is the source of much strife in the world, you would do well to avoid it here.

Funny, We use celsius at work so I only use C when I brew at home because it it what I am familiar with. 122F

jitteringjr said:

Funny, We use celsius at work so I only use C when I brew at home because it it what I am familiar with. 122F

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Don't apologize for his ineptitude.

It is what it is, sorry don't do C.....B.....

brianroberts said:

It is what it is, sorry don't do C.....B.....

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Ok so others and myself think that is a bad idea. For me it makes calculations much easier. You still didn't answer any of my questions. We can't help without more info.

Ok to answer your questions yes I hit my OG which was 1049,
No I didn't do a protease hold, I mashed at 152~F for 60 minutes,than sparged with 170~F water,this was my 1st wheat beer,I've never had this problem before,I really thought my problem stemmed from not making a starter and pitching it directly from the tube.
I checked the Gravity today and its 1007,right where is should be,never blew a bubble through the airloc and the bucket lid was concaved the whole time,go figure?
Sorry if you guys think I'm a little rough around the edges, just the way I am.....B....