Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

Williams 728
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Colbizle said:
I'm going to respectively disagree with both of you (in a nice way of course!) :)

I was actually targeting a final beer ph of 4.4-4.5

Martin B is a big advocate of keeping the mash ph at 5.4 to brighten hop character. A Kettle PH of 5.3-5.4 tends lend to a better hop utilization and character but the higher end 5.4 or 5.5 in the kettle can contribute to harsher bitterness.

John Kimmich says that he mashes heady topper around 5.4.

Hill Farmstead's Edward is measured with a final beer ph of 4.4.

This link shows highly rated IPAs and their final beer PH.
With 4.4 being the lowest and 4.8 being the highest.

And finally Junkyards post in this thread regarding gordon strong's research and experimentations:
http://discussions.probrewer.com/archive/index.php/t-37666.html
Click to expand...

On that list of commercial finished pH levels Edward would be tied for lowest with Deschutes no?

Have yet to actually measure my finished beer pH but have really settled in on a mash pH of 5.3 which leaves me ~5.25 post boil usually.
 
more_betterness said:
On that list of commercial finished pH levels Edward would be tied for lowest with Deschutes no?

Have yet to actually measure my finished beer pH but have really settled in on a mash pH of 5.3 which leaves me ~5.20 post boil usually.
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Correct. I think 5.3 is fine and it all comes down to your tastes and your expectations.

Keep in mind that final ph is dependent on many factors including pitching rate, aeration, and cast out ph (post boil ph) and believe it our not the amount of dry-hops used. With the biggest contributing factor being the yeast strain. I've seen some yeast strains finish quite high and some quite low despite having a similar cast out ph.
 
I have a NB All Grain Chinook unmilled IPA kit I picked up when NB had their buy 2 get one free sale a month or so ago still laying around and I think I am going to whip up a 5 gallon experimental batch using these water/ph suggestions along with some Conan yeast to see how it turns out.


The water profile I have pieced together in BruN for this one looks like this (note all RO/Distilled water to be used on this test batch):

Ca - 60
Mag - 13
SO - 24
Na - 66
Cl - 133

BruN is showing a 5.2 Room Temp Mash PH with this profile which I think is where I need to be..

Hopefully this gets me close to what you all are seeing with the mouthfeel..
I may roll in a 1oz Chinook hopstand at 170 for 30-45 to beef up this one as well.
Should be an interesting batch...
 
bbohanon said:
I have a NB All Grain Chinook unmilled IPA kit I picked up when NB had their buy 2 get one free sale a month or so ago still laying around and I think I am going to whip up a 5 gallon experimental batch using these water/ph suggestions along with some Conan yeast to see how it turns out.


The water profile I have pieced together in BruN for this one looks like this (note all RO/Distilled water to be used on this test batch):

Ca - 60
Mag - 13
SO - 24
Na - 66
Cl - 133

BruN is showing a 5.2 Room Temp Mash PH with this profile which I think is where I need to be..

Hopefully this gets me close to what you all are seeing with the mouthfeel..
I may roll in a 1oz Chinook hopstand at 170 for 30-45 to beef up this one as well.
Should be an interesting batch...
Click to expand...

Just keep in mind a lower finished beer pH can typically thin the mouthfeel.

I know this is personal taste, but I would up your hopstand if you can to at least 3 oz, if not more. That's another contributor to mouthfeel.

Sulfate looks very low, and I would personally up it a bit, but I'm also really curious to see how this beer comes out with this amount!
 
Callacave said:
Just keep in mind a lower finished beer pH can typically thin the mouthfeel.

I know this is personal taste, but I would up your hopstand if you can to at least 3 oz, if not more. That's another contributor to mouthfeel.

Sulfate looks very low, and I would personally up it a bit, but I'm also really curious to see how this beer comes out with this amount!
Click to expand...

May bump the sulfate up to slightly but am looking at targeting that 2:1 chloride to sulfate ratio as braufessor mentioned he is having success with..will also adjust to bump the ph closer to 5.3/4 as well as 5.2 may indeed be too low.

Will definitely up the hop stand to 4oz of chinook and hop stand it at 180/170 for 30-45.

Any other additional suggestions on this are welcomed as well..I am hoping to turn this into a super Chinook IPA with these changes and I will certainly take notes and photos of this batch to share with the group on this experiment..
 
Made some adjustments and worked up this new profile for the Chinook batch:

Calcium 87
Magnesium 13
Sodium 25
Sulfate 74
Cloride 138

Room Temp Mash Ph with this profile is 5.4..
Also tossing 2oz of Centennial and 2oz of Citra as the Whirlpooling hops instead of Chinook and adding .25lb of flaked wheat and flaked oats for adjuncts (yea I know its cheating..lol)

This turns out well, I am going to call it "Quinn the Eskimo IPA"
 
Braufessor said:
Grain:
41% Rahr 2 Row
41% Maris Otter
8% Flaked Oats
4% Flaked Barley
2% Flaked Wheat
3% Crystal 40
Click to expand...

Braufessor,

Rahr 2 row as in the 2L?

I see hill farmstead lists pale and caramel malt in his ingredients for Edward. Which I'm assuming translates to rahr pale ale malt which is 3-4L.
Edward looks to be about 5-6 SRM.

Thoughts?
 
Colbizle said:
Braufessor,

Rahr 2 row as in the 2L?

I see hill farmstead lists pale and caramel malt in his ingredients for Edward. Which I'm assuming translates to rahr pale ale malt which is 3-4L.
Edward looks to be about 5-6 SRM.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Can't answer for him, but I use Rahr 2-Row "brewer's" malt (1.7L) as the base for most of my hoppy beers. For cloudy beers, I think paler looks better (less muddy), and I don't want much toasty flavor.
 
Oldsock said:
Can't answer for him, but I use Rahr 2-Row "brewer's" malt (1.7L) as the base for most of my hoppy beers. For cloudy beers, I think paler looks better (less muddy), and I don't want much toasty flavor.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Well we know that HF uses Rahr. Do you suspect Edward is made with pale 3-4L or 2-row 2L ?
 
Yep - just regular old Rahr 2 Row base malt.....2L I think. But I also generally split my Base Malt portion 50/50 with 2Row and something like golden promise or maris otter for a bit more depth and character.
 
Braufessor said:
Yep - just regular old Rahr 2 Row base malt.....2L I think. But I also generally split my Base Malt portion 50/50 with 2Row and something like golden promise or maris otter for a bit more depth and character.
Click to expand...

Ok. I was just curious what others are doing. I love golden promise and have been using that for some time. I may try a 50/50 on my next. Thanks.
 
Colbizle said:
Braufessor,

Rahr 2 row as in the 2L?

I see hill farmstead lists pale and caramel malt in his ingredients for Edward. Which I'm assuming translates to rahr pale ale malt which is 3-4L.
Edward looks to be about 5-6 SRM.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I emailed Shaun, he stated a blend of both for most of their hoppy beers. I think anything will do, but you have to figure at this point he has a silo with base grain and may augment it with some pale ale malt for flavor? I have been going with trilliums description personally. 2 row, carapils, wheat. though I have not been using the wheat portion, carapils at its heart is a EDIT 1.5L crystal malt. EDIT, it adds the sweetness you need without any roast. I have really come to hate munich and caramel 30 on up in IPAs latley!
 
mosaicbrewer said:
I emailed Shaun, he stated a blend of both for most of their hoppy beers. I think anything will do, but you have to figure at this point he has a silo with base grain and may augment it with some pale ale malt for flavor? I have been going with trilliums description personally. 2 row, carapils, wheat. though I have not been using the wheat portion, carapils at its heartis a 2-3L crystal malt.
Click to expand...

Awsome thanks mosaic! :mug:
 
just tested out danstar windsor as a 1318 sub. I tasted yesterday and am kegging today. it is looking more promising than I had previously mentioned.
 
mosaicbrewer said:
just tested out danstar windsor as a 1318 sub. I tasted yesterday and am kegging today. it is looking more promising than I had previously mentioned.
Click to expand...

I brewed a Tired Hand's something like wort and fermented it with 4 different yeasts. All of them dropped clear at like 3 days expect for the Windsor which still have krausen at day 15.
When it gonna drop?
 
mine dropped when I dry hopped it, but it has not cleared. Early indications (17 day old beer in a keg) seems to say this may bbe one of the bette subs for 1318, but there is just a certain quality to it, that may hold back the juicesiness I strive for.
 
mosaicbrewer said:
mine dropped when I dry hopped it, but it has not cleared. Early indications (17 day old beer in a keg) seems to say this may bbe one of the bette subs for 1318, but there is just a certain quality to it, that may hold back the juicesiness I strive for.
Click to expand...

I shaked the carboy once a day for 3 days and it seems like it dropped around day 18 so I dryhopped it.
 
Colbizle said:
No adjuncts (my latest IPA) just mineral additions. Check out that pillowy head. :D
Click to expand...


Going back to this Colbizle. Wondering if your up for sharing some more Info on that awesome looking beer!!! Grain bill perhaps??? Maybe some water info?? [emoji3]
 
gotbags-10 said:
Going back to this Colbizle. Wondering if your up for sharing some more Info on that awesome looking beer!!! Grain bill perhaps??? Maybe some water info?? [emoji3]
Click to expand...

I asked this somewhere in the thread as well but was met with silence.
Hopefully Col will share some info as that beer does look very tasty.
:fro:

My Quinn The Eskimo IPA was built around alot of this information and is about a week in the fermenter. Going to start dry hopping it tomorrow night for a week, xfer it to a keg and dryhop it for a second week and will report back here how it turns out with GBill, water prof and pics of the finished product. I hoping its close to what we are seeing with Colbizz and ProfBraus results.
 
I sent a couple beers to Colbizle for sampling. I think both of us are doing things in a fairly similar fashion. He confirmed that he felt he was getting more out of the mouthfeel, creaminess, etc. than he found in mine. I think the #1 variable in our approaches is that I am still messing around with Conan yeast on everything and he has been using 1318. This is something I was not entirely surprised to hear. Mine have good body and they are smooth - but, to the level of what we are shooting for.

Bottom line is that I think the yeast is the dominate player in all of this. Even if everything else is basically the same (grain, hopping, water, pH, etc.) It seems that simply changing yeast will give significantly different results in the way of the mouthfeel we are shooting for in this discussion.

He can probably chime in with other differences he noticed in comparing the beers, and other differences in our process..... but, I think the key difference is the use of 1318 (and possibly a couple other varieties).

Hoping to order some 1318 and do a couple batches with it in the next couple weeks...... I am just getting so used to using conan for everything though:)
 
bbohanon said:
I asked this somewhere in the thread as well but was met with silence.
Hopefully Col will share some info as that beer does look very tasty.
:fro:

My Quinn The Eskimo IPA was built around alot of this information and is about a week in the fermenter. Going to start dry hopping it tomorrow night for a week, xfer it to a keg and dryhop it for a second week and will report back here how it turns out with GBill, water prof and pics of the finished product. I hoping its close to what we are seeing with Colbizz and ProfBraus results.
Click to expand...

Hey guys sorry for not replying, been very busy with work and haven't had a chance to hop on here lately. I must have missed your question bbohanon so sorry about that.

This recipe was quite simple really.

It was all golden promise with some cara-45 to get in about 5 SRM. I used mosaic, centennial and citra in the boil and in the dry hop. I mashed around 153-4F to finish about 1.015. wyeast 1318. Mash ph 5.4. Part of the look is the low flocculating yeast and the other part is hop haze. SO4/CL is on point with what ProfBraus was targeting earlier in the threads.

I'm still playing around, I got another batch that just about done in the ferm, need to dry hop for a few days then keg. I'll post back. Cheers!
 
Colbizle said:
Hey guys sorry for not replying, been very busy with work and haven't had a chance to hop on here lately. I must have missed your question bbohanon so sorry about that.

This recipe was quite simple really.

It was all golden promise with some cara-45 to get in about 5 SRM. I used mosaic, centennial and citra in the boil and in the dry hop. I mashed around 153-4F to finish about 1.015. wyeast 1318. Mash ph 5.4. Part of the look is the low flocculating yeast and the other part is hop haze. SO4/CL is on point with what ProfBraus was targeting earlier in the threads.

I'm still playing around, I got another batch that just about done in the ferm, need to dry hop for a few days then keg. I'll post back. Cheers!
Click to expand...

Awesome and thanks much!
 
Braufessor said:
Bottom line is that I think the yeast is the dominate player in all of this.
Click to expand...

Yes!

To my understanding HF's yeast is a house strain, maybe derived from or similar to WY1318...so it may be very hard to ever get exceedingly close without actually culturing up some of their yeast from a fresh beer. Someone should do that.
 
g-star said:
Yes!

To my understanding HF's yeast is a house strain, maybe derived from or similar to WY1318...so it may be very hard to ever get exceedingly close without actually culturing up some of their yeast from a fresh beer. Someone should do that.
Click to expand...

Speaking of culturing yeast..... got a nice shipment of beer yesterday:)

vermont.jpg
 
Wheat, Flaked Wheat, Torrified Wheat, Flaked Barley and/or Flaked Oats will get you to where you are trying to go with beer head. As will crystal malts.
 
Braufessor said:
Speaking of culturing yeast..... got a nice shipment of beer yesterday:)
Click to expand...

You dirty ...... I wish I could sample every one of those beers. Although I drove 630 miles to New Glarus WI to get Raspberry Tart and Belgian Red. Hmmm
 
Ben58 said:
You dirty ...... I wish I could sample every one of those beers. Although I drove 630 miles to New Glarus WI to get Raspberry Tart and Belgian Red. Hmmm
Click to expand...

I am pretty lucky - I have a great trading partner out east. He makes lots of big beer runs up to Vermont. I supply him with Barrel Aged Stouts, DIPA's, etc.... from Toppling Goliath (a few minutes away), and he sends me all the great stuff from Vermont in exchange.

I probably shouldn't tell you that I am only 45 minutes from Wisconsin too, and will be picking up a bunch of New Glarus stuff on my way to Great Taste of the Midwest tomorrow:mug:
 
Well my first batch of "New England" style APA, following the advice from this thread and the others has gone through a week of carbonation. Popped one to try, and it's freaking delicious. 1318, 17% oats, 3ish% acid malt, "ideal pale ale" water, 200g hallertau blanc on 25l with some warrior at 60.

I had my first US trip earlier this summer, visiting HF, Trillium, Treehouse, and many others. Color and mouthfeel wise the one I brewed now was surprisingly similar to the Nelson pale ale I tried at HF, but it does not have the ridiculous chewy mouthfeel of Treehouse - Green, which I guess is my new #1 as far as IPAs go. Still, that's a 2.5% stronger beer with slightly more SRM. Definitely getting somewhere. Currently got a slightly tweaked version using southern passion, which is such a fun hop. Thanks for the tips so far folks.
 
I've been following this thread since the beginning. I have nothing to add except thank you's to everyone for the inspiration. Early in the thread, there were discussions on hop stands so I did my first hop stand. A BM Centennial Blonde inspired recipe. Used oats for mouthfeel with Centennial for FWH and 0 min and a load of citra for a 30 min stand. I was going for a flavorful, sessionable ale.

Fast forward 2 weeks and it's the most aromatic beer I've made. Best way to describe is as if I was blindfolded and given grapefruit juice. It tastes like a very nice blonde ale, nice malty / balanced bitterness but the nose is grapefruit heaven! It's quite refreshing!
 
So i tasted the first beer i made with these tips (Cl higher than SO4, low amounts of 60min bittering hops, 15% oats, ph control etc.)
The yeast I used was MJ Burton Ale, it didn't flocced.
Mouthfeel was far superior to anything I've made with US05.
I think the beer was too dry though, I kinda miss the crystal additions. On the other hand the OG was lowish, (1.053) malt bill was simple (Maris + Oats) and it was fermented warmer than the temperatures mentioned in this thread.
 
I have 2 batches going side-by-side right now. Both are all-citra beers. Only difference is one with 15% flaked, one without. Both are finishing up primary and almost ready for second round of dry hop. Everything else is the same to what I have been doing recently.
 

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