Homebrewing Service?

Yooper_Brew said:

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It's understandable to want to circumvent the rules, but keep in mind that a forum like this cannot and will not condone doing anything illegal.

Selling/bartering/donating/accepting donations/etc for homebrew is usually illegal.

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Then why is this allowed?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f38/10-10-10-bgs-swap-sign-up-details-193541/
Just asking.

Another business idea that might be kind of fun, and wouldn't break any laws, would to become some sort of homebrew tutor. Instead of just doing the work for the customer, actually TEACH the customer how to brew. Instruct him what to buy, he could of course buy the supplies from you, and then give a class right there in his house. Walk him through the steps and explain why we do each thing at each step. The customer would of course pitch his own yeast but he would be doing most of the hands on work anyway.

Not only does this follow the letter of the law, but is in keeping with the spirit of the law as well. You are being paid for you teaching time and not for your brew. I think this would be a valuable service and would bring more people into the homebrew community in a responsible way. I know it isn't exactly what the OP was asking about, but it is sort of related. Something for you enterprising folk to think about.

What it comes down to in the case of the OP, is that it is illegal to SELL homebrew in any form, including barter. If this was just a once in a while sort of thing, between friends, I can see how it would be easy to have them pitch the yeast and separate any form of payment from the act. I mean, super easy. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

However, it's still illegal.

Doing this in a way that would resemble a retail business, such as advertising, doing it at the brewer's house, etc., would be an open invitation to be caught and prosecuted. It's just asking for trouble that nobody here wants.

That's why I "suggest" brewing at their place, allowing them to buy the ingredients, having them pitch the yeast, and you are only there to assist and explain. This is not something you would do except for friends. The other part of the deal could be handled completely separately.

This is not something I would even consider, myself. If my friends want to learn to homebrew I'd only be too happy to help them out. They can watch while I brew at my house and I'd give them a couple of 6-packs to try it when it's done. The goal would be to learn them so they can do it on their own. Even with this method there are some states which would frown on this, since the beer doesn't remain at my house, or I'm giving it away as a gift.

I'm not going to argue why it's illegal to sell homebrew, or try to justify the action. I'm just stating what the law says.

It's my OPINION that you should be able to work something out with your friends, within the context of your local laws. But ANYTHING resembling a business is going to be illegal in any state.

Brewer_Bob said:

Another business idea that might be kind of fun, and wouldn't break any laws, would to become some sort of homebrew tutor. Instead of just doing the work for the customer, actually TEACH the customer how to brew. Instruct him what to buy, he could of course buy the supplies from you, and then give a class right there in his house. Walk him through the steps and explain why we do each thing at each step. The customer would of course pitch his own yeast but he would be doing most of the hands on work anyway.

Not only does this follow the letter of the law, but is in keeping with the spirit of the law as well. You are being paid for you teaching time and not for your brew. I think this would be a valuable service and would bring more people into the homebrew community in a responsible way. I know it isn't exactly what the OP was asking about, but it is sort of related. Something for you enterprising folk to think about.

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+1 with the addendum that you would need to do this at THEIR house to remain legal (in some states).

Is brewing all that difficult? I mean sure, you can get pretty involved in styles and honing your skills over time but to need to teach someone how to brew a beer at home is unnecessary with all the instruction available. Then again, some people like to have some one show them. But like someone mentioned in some other thread about homebrewers, we are pretty much a group of people who like to do it ourselves.

Brewer_Bob said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with these conversations. They are fun.

If you let him pitch the yeast then I can't see anything in the law that would make it illegal. If it were, then homebrew supply shops would be breaking the law in selling you extract and the other supplies. Obviously they aren't. If YOU pitch the yeast then you are potentially opening yourself up to prosecution. It could still be arguable but you would have to be prepared to put up a defense.

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Except these homebrew shops have all the license and taxation information, as well as being registered businesses, and are allowed by law to sell those products by virtue of the red tape they went through. Joe Normal in his basement is not.

Valcarde said:

Except these homebrew shops have all the license and taxation information, as well as being registered businesses, and are allowed by law to sell those products by virtue of the red tape they went through. Joe Normal in his basement is not.

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Sure, but unlike bars and breweries there is nothing special about their licensing. It is just your run of the mill business licensing, likely no different from what you would have to own a small grocery store, because they are NOT selling alcohol. It goes without saying that if you went into business doing ANYTHING you are going to have to fill out some government paperwork to make sure they get their taxes. But for most types of businesses it isn't that complicated.

jgln said:

Is brewing all that difficult? I mean sure, you can get pretty involved in styles and honing your skills over time but to need to teach someone how to brew a beer at home is unnecessary with all the instruction available. Then again, some people like to have some one show them. But like someone mentioned in some other thread about homebrewers, we are pretty much a group of people who like to do it ourselves.

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Well, the people posting here wouldn't be making up the customer base because we are the types who know how to find the information we need. But not everyone spends time browsing message boards pertaining to their hobbies. I'm not saying you would get rich off it though.

I'm not sure about the service but if you really wanted to, you could possibly sell the buckets with wort. As for what permits and all, I would suspect you wouldn't need a brewers license but you could ask the people that make the Big and Easy kits.

There was a guy on craigslist a while back that was charging for something similar here in the SF Bay Area. He would bring his equipment to your house, "teach" you to brew, leave the fermenting wort with you then come back to help you bottle. As I recall he was asking a ridiculous amount of money for it and I only saw the ad once.... dunno if it's kosher or not though...

Revvy said:

Remember homebrewing wasn't re-legalized after the Volstead act was repealed in 1933, it wasn't legalized until 1978, and it took a lot of work in those 45 years to get it to happen....and despite it's federal legalization, it is STILL on a State by State basis.

Wasn't it legalized in Utah JUST this very year?

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I was having a conversation with my girlfriend, who is a current law student, about the medical marijuana laws. Even though the state (MI in this example) legalized medical marijuana, the green stuff is still illegal on a federal level. This means that federal agents can arrest you for possessing it even if you have a state medical marijuana license.

Now, with what Revvy just said, homebrewing is legal on the federal level, but certain states have made it illegal. This seams backwards to me. The states can't trump federal marijuana laws, but they can override homebrewing laws?

I'd love some of our more legally-inclined members to chime in on this one

It wasn't "Legalized" by the federal government. They just gave the states the right to regulate it however they see fit.

Brewer_Bob said:

Sure, but unlike bars and breweries there is nothing special about their licensing. It is just your run of the mill business licensing, likely no different from what you would have to own a small grocery store, because they are NOT selling alcohol. It goes without saying that if you went into business doing ANYTHING you are going to have to fill out some government paperwork to make sure they get their taxes. But for most types of businesses it isn't that complicated.

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If there are any on-premises brewing stores in your area, go to them and ask what kind of licensing they need to operate. Even if they let the user pitch the yeast, I wager they need a license to even allow that on the premises.

At least in Ontario, brew-on-premises locations do need a special license, last I checked. It may be different in your area.

Either way, the worst thing to do when dealing with something with the law is to make assumptions. It's always best to verify with a local lawyer or make an anonymous call for information at the local city hall for regulations such as this. Online forums are not the best places to ask for legal advice, just due to the large amount of armchair lawyers.

Revvy said:

But they are not legal, and if someone had a bug up their assess to press the issue, and want to get rid of them, the fact that they were unlicensed, un-inspectied and untaxed, would be the lynchpin to take them down. Especially if someone got sick.

Just because their doing it in the underground economy also doesn't meant that if I started to do it more mainstream, I wouldn't be busted...some folks are better a getting away with stuff than others...But my analogy still stands.

They've been trying to do that with taco carts in LA for quite some time, because the resteraunt owners are complaining. But most of those are licensed and inspected, so that doesn't always work.

But it doesn't matter, change the food metaphor to something else if it makes you happy then, baking cookies for chrissakes, the point is to conduct business where food is concerned there is all manner of state, local and even federal laws that have to be followed in order to do it legitimately. And if it's not legit, then it's illegal,

The Canadian wort guy is a fool is he thinks that business isn't regulated. Was all that I was saying.

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My point was that they get away with it because they're viewed as "harmless". No doubt, one food sickness incident and they'd be gone. Unfortunately, our "hobby" is often viewed as hillbilly moonshine and any suspicion would be instantly acted upon. Our local homebrew competition was visited by a sheriff that seemed disappointed that nothing nefarious was happening.

We are on the same page in the end, sir.

curlyfat said:

My point was that they get away with it because they're viewed as "harmless". No doubt, one food sickness incident and they'd be gone. Unfortunately, our "hobby" is often viewed as hillbilly moonshine and any suspicion would be instantly acted upon. Our local homebrew competition was visited by a sheriff that seemed disappointed that nothing nefarious was happening.

We are on the same page in the end, sir.

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What it this guy?

He's the Sheriff that busted the Alabama Homebrewer.

jgln said:

Is brewing all that difficult? I mean sure, you can get pretty involved in styles and honing your skills over time but to need to teach someone how to brew a beer at home is unnecessary with all the instruction available. Then again, some people like to have some one show them. But like someone mentioned in some other thread about homebrewers, we are pretty much a group of people who like to do it ourselves.

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In the OP's question this is especially true. Given the choice of brewing a Coors Light clone or fermenting it, the brewing step is easier by a mile.

Revvy said:

What it this guy?

He's the Sheriff that busted the Alabama Homebrewer.

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Damn! Look at all that distillery equipment! Surely someone will go blind making spirits at home!

That guy still looks as much like as ****** as the first time I saw him.

Is he the same guy that said, "Our beer drink pretty good!" or something like that?

hal2814 said:

In the OP's question this is especially true. Given the choice of brewing a Coors Light clone or fermenting it, the brewing step is easier by a mile.

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Not exactly sure what that means, sorry. I guess the point I was trying to make is I can't see it being a very profitable business when it is pretty easy to buy a kit and read the directions and go from there as you like. It makes we wonder how profitable these wine making places are. My guess is it is people who think making wine at home is "common" and making it at a winery or whatever "sophisticated". I could be very wrong though.

mrkstel said:

It wasn't "Legalized" by the federal government. They just gave the states the right to regulate it however they see fit.

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Hah, there's a whole thread on that over at the debate forum, but you have to sign up as a Premium or Lifetime Supporter member to read all the opinions on that. Not to get into the debate side of it, but read your Constitution, then tell me what Rights the Federal Government can "give" to anyone, let alone the states.

You've got your flow of authority all wrong.

Revvy said:

What it this guy?

He's the Sheriff that busted the Alabama Homebrewer.

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It might as well have been! Man that picture irks me every time I see it.

Now this is just me and my thoughts only.

If I think its illegal or could it be illegal, than more than likely it is.
Yes I am a bit of a gambler. Vegas, reno, lose 10,000 no big deal I can get that back.
Try too get your time back.
NO DOLLAR AMOUNT IS WORTH ONE MINUTE IN JAIL.

dzlater said:

Then why is this allowed?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f38/10-10-10-bgs-swap-sign-up-details-193541/
Just asking.

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I'm not sure what your point is? No one is selling/donating for charity/etc.

Anyway, there are tons of threads on here about people who have tried to think of ways to circumvent the laws. We're all grownups here, and we all make choices. If you choose to do something that isn't legal, I'd assume that you wouldn't post about it on the internet.

Yooper_Brew said:

I'm not sure what your point is? No one is selling/donating for charity/etc.

Anyway, there are tons of threads on here about people who have tried to think of ways to circumvent the laws. We're all grownups here, and we all make choices. If you choose to do something that isn't legal, I'd assume that you wouldn't post about it on the internet.

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I wasn't trying to make a point, I was just asking a question
I guess I misunderstood.
You said,
"Selling/bartering/donating/accepting donations/etc for homebrew is usually illegal."
So swapping homebrew for homebrew is legal buy not swapping home brew for something else?
Also this from Revy's post
"In fact Bartering of alcohol of any type is illegal, period, even for licensed retailers."
Like I said just asking.

Bartering is trading goods or services for other goods and services. Trading a beer for someone else's beer is not the same, because they are the same good. So basically yes, as I understand it swapping homebrew for homebrew is not illegal, but swapping homebrew for grain, a wort chiller, or having a guy fix your roof would be.

What about looking into how onsite brewing works? They basically provide people with the equipment and space to brew their beer. Then they come back to bottle it and take it home. The "shop" doesn't actually do any of the brewing.

I looked it up but can't remember how it works.

I was thinking how this is like masturbation. It is perfectly legal to do it to yourself but as soon as you pay someone to do it for you it becomes illegal.

jgln said:

I was thinking how this is like masturbation. It is perfectly legal to do it to yourself but as soon as you pay someone to do it for you it becomes illegal.

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Except in Las Vegas, and evidently Canada now.

jgln said:

I was thinking how this is like masturbation. It is perfectly legal to do it to yourself but as soon as you pay someone to do it for you it becomes illegal.

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Wait, what? When did this happen?

Do they consider it cheating now too?

jgln said:

I was thinking how this is like masturbation. It is perfectly legal to do it to yourself but as soon as you pay someone to do it for you it becomes illegal.

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...unless you are filming a movie...

Back on point for a moment....

AFAIK, this is legal. There is a Wine/Homebrew shop in SE Michigan that has individuals sign up to buy 5 gallons of their wort - whatever the style of the month is - and then let them know when they will be brewing.

They sell a 5 gallon container of wort, and will also sell the individual any yeast, fermenters, bottles, or whatever else they need. It is all legal because they only sell sugar water, not alcohol.

When I first read the post, I immediately thought the OP was more or less proposing a BOP setup. Never used one myself, but I believe that some of them will help you brew then provide the yeast, and a place for you to store the beer while it is fermenting, then provide the space and equipment to bottle.

ISLAGI said:

Back on point for a moment....

AFAIK, this is legal. There is a Wine/Homebrew shop in SE Michigan that has individuals sign up to buy 5 gallons of their wort - whatever the style of the month is - and then let them know when they will be brewing.

They sell a 5 gallon container of wort, and will also sell the individual any yeast, fermenters, bottles, or whatever else they need. It is all legal because they only sell sugar water, not alcohol.

When I first read the post, I immediately thought the OP was more or less proposing a BOP setup. Never used one myself, but I believe that some of them will help you brew then provide the yeast, and a place for you to store the beer while it is fermenting, then provide the space and equipment to bottle.

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Right, you can't pay them to do it for you but can pay them to provide the space, the utilities, the tools, the supplies and the instruction but you have to brew it. For them it is hands off (no pun intended) once it starts to create alcohol. That is how I understand it.