FAIL: apfelwein yeast starters (harvesting slants)

I have had 100% luck with making wort yeast starters from slants. Generally works like this:

slant --> 50ml starter on a stirplate --> 500ml stir --> whatever final size --> pitch the whole thing
Great results, no problems.

I wanted to harvest a slant of 3068 weizen yeast to make another batch of apfelwein (first batch was from the liquid culture, from which I stole enough to innoculate my slants).

So I tried the process above with the same apple juice (plus a bit of yeast nutrient) I ferment. Either minimal or no action. Could have just been temp changes causing a few airlock bubbles. I tried pitching it anyhow to see what would happen. Nothing after 24 hrs in the carboy.

Scrounged in the fridge for a dry yeast backup and found I had ordered a packet of the Danstar Munich wheat beer yeast so I hydrated and pitched. Action within 30 mins and now 36hrs after that it's really making the airlock earn its money. Unless I'm hallucinating it smells like carmel apples. Could be interesting. I'll report back in Nov on how this batch comes out.

So here (finally) is my question: Is there anything special about making cider/juice starters? Or should I just make a wort starter, let it settle, pour off the spent and just pitch the cake? This is the direction I'll head next unless someone intervenes. I would hope in that situation that the small amount of wort would not affect the AW flavor.

When I would make starters for mead, I would do it exactly like you described; let it ferment out and drop out of suspension then pitch into the must. Only with apple juice instead of malt wort (I assume that's what you're talking about with making it with wor) I'm betting that particular slant you tried to propagate just wasn't up to the awesome task of fermentation.

How long did you try to let the juice starter go?

How old was the slant?

The slant was 4.5mos old; I've cultured from other slants in that innoculation group recently and they did fine in wort. I do admit the possibility that this particular tube was not happy, although I think my technique was ignorant/faulty. I think my problem is I don't yet grook the visual feedback from juice starter; I think my senses are calibrated to wort starters.

I left the 50ml on the stirplate for about 18hrs, then pitched into the 500ml for about 24. I wasn't seeing much so I stopped stepping up there and pitched it to see what would happen. I did not take a hydro sample, which probably would have confirmed things. Isn't pure apple juice something like 1.060?

If I were to do it again I think I'd figure out exactly how much nutrient should be in the juice starter and aerate/stir more agressively. My only other experience with 3068 in juice w/out nutrient was slow, steady, then stalled so maybe it just isn't happy in juice and needs more coaxing.

Fratermus - First I have not made a juice starter yet, so you can take my advice for what its worth.

I believe plain juice, no sugar, is about 1.040. If you dilute it to about 20-30 pts it would be an easier start at the 50ml. Add nutrients & oxygenate.

I am not using old slants. 7 days max. Store your yeast in sterile water, noc a slant, then, 3 days later, drop two of the biggest colonies into a 50ml start at ~ 1.020. Then step up to 1.040.

I have sweet mead cyser going that I started from a wyeast smack pack. (4184) This is what I will do next time.

Hope this helps...

I would use an unhopped malt starter - yeast love barley-malt, it has all sorts of nutrients they like, and if unhopped, that little malt is not going to greatly impact the taste of the end product.