My batch sparge efficiency theory was confirmed again

On today's batch, I really didn't have much room for a mashout addition so I tried a no mash out, double sparge where the sparge water was hot enough to get the grain bed up to 166F in the first infusion (180F infusion by the way). That running was 1.042. Then I added another batch infusion at 170F and those runnings were 1.022. I obviously left some sugars behind but preboil efficiency was 87.5% Woah. I'm positive that if I threw a gallon of boiling water in for a mash out that I would have broke 90%.

I know you have said before but I am too drunk to do a decent search, do you just take your sparge volume and split it?

I would like to up my efficiency a bit but can only boil 6.75gallons of wort, so I can't effectively sparge with normal volume twice and boil down.

Yeah, this time with no mash out, I just split the sparge volume that would get me to my desired preboil. If I mashed out, I'd subract that mash out from the total sparge volume, but still split the remaining volume in two.

Great, thanks. I have been doing a single batch sparge with a mash out and I get 70% consistently. If I could raise that a bit until I get my own mill I would be very happy.

Bobby,

I think it's about time people stopped questioning if Batch sparging is as effiecient as fly sparging. Depending on how much time and care I put into it I can get anywhere from around 80% to my best of 92%.

I expect people to call BS on the 92% but that's up to them.

I think next time I brew I'll try a hot mash out with the last gallon of sparge water and see if it makes a difference becasue my last runnings are also usually quite high unless I go over my volume.

I haven't been mashing out for my batch sparging. My efficiency is poor (sub 70%), so this thread has been helpful. Can you clarify your strike, mashout, sparge volumes? I'm struggling (with Beersmith) to be able to get sparge amounts that look reasonable. Assuming a mashout option, for 15 lbs of grain I get something like this:

Strike 4.7 gallons
Mashout 2.6 gallons
Sparge 1.1 gallons

Using the batch sparge option (no mash out here) I get this:

Strike 4.7 gallons
Sparge 1 1.9 gallons
Sparge 2 1.9 gallons


Perhaps this is a Beersmith question, I must be missing something. I haven't looked at the source formulas for things for a while, guess I'll have to hit the books this weekend.

The driving force behind the volumes you use are driven by 2 main things.
Your grain to water ratio. and the size of you mash tun.
To get the correct figures from BeerSmith you have to set up your equipment correctly.
You then get out what you put in minus grain absorption plus dead space.
This is your first runnings.
You know what your boil volume should be so you know what sparge volume you need.
With my set up I can normally get away with splitting my sparge water over 2 batches.
I get around 6L out of my first runnings so split 24L of sparge water over 2 batches

Just some checks to Beersmith:
4.7 gallons strike for 15 lbs of grain (1.25 quarts to one pound)
1.3 gallons absorbed (between 0.8 gallons to 1 gallon per 10 pounds)
=3.4 gallons first runnings

Having sparge = first running means 3.4 sparge (if done in two that's 1.7 each). That yields 6.8 gallons to boil, pretty close what Beersmith has me doing.

Question is: How do I mash out and yet have enough water left to sparge (and only getting 6.8 gallons. Do I just sparge with less than above? Sparging with 1 gallon (per Beersmith after using a mash out) seems wrong.

What am I missing?

Use your second batch to mash out.

Ok, so my interpretation of mashout is really about heating the mash into the mid to upper 160F area before first runnings whether you're direct firing, decocting, or infusing. Those of us with cooler MLTs, infusion is the only way. Using beertoolspro, I can tell it I want to infuse into an existing mash with a fixed temp and volume. It will tell me what the new temp will be. Since I can also input and lock in my desired preboil volume, it will subtract the mash out infusion from the 2-batch sparge volumes. By the way, you can go a little thicker on your mash to make room for at least some of the mash out infusion (maybe 1.1 qt/lb).

Here's a rundown of last night's volumes:
Mash 21lbs with 6.5g (1.24qt/lb).
First runnings were 3.5 gallons at 1.075.
Batch 1, 5 gallons @ 178, settled to 166. Running 5.25 @ 1.042.
Batch 2, 4gal @160. Runnings 4.25gal @ 1.022.
Preboil total was 13 gallons @ 1.050 for 87.5% effeciency.

Now, let's say I did have room for a one gallon mashout infusion. I'd just reduce the two batches by 1/2 gallon each.

I think even a one gallon infusion of boiling water will increase efficiency because you're making that sugar more soluable from the start. However, the alternative and next best thing is getting the grain bed up in temp as soon as you can (if not mashout before first runnings, then at least in the first batch infusion).

How about doing a mash out before sparging?

Drain, add the mashout water then sparge?

Another trick would be to decoct... maybe a pain.. but drain 1 gallon out of the mash at the end, bring to boil, add back in to mash, stir, vorlauf and drain. I'm 99% sure the gravity of that first running will be increased.

I may do a simple brew tomorrow and try a different method to see what happens.

I think I'll Drain a gallon of the first runnings then add a gallon of boiling water.
Drain immediately then sparge as normal.

If you can't fit a mash out infusion in the cooler, then another option might be to heat your sparge water very hot so that it brings the grainbed up to 168 or so, at least on the first sparge (if you intend to do two or more). That might be a good substitute.

I am sold on mash-outs, and Bobby's experiences confirm my experience (that's reassuring). I would submit two pieces of advice, as well, to those mashing in a cooler MLT. First, accommodating a mash-out plus a sparge is going to require a big cooler, so don't cheap out if you are building a mash tun. Second, this is a great example of where steam infusion (see my sig below) can be really helpful if you have a cooler MLT. Unfortunately, this option gets overlooked all the time as an alternative to hot water infusion for step-mashing and mash-outs.

Flyguy, I think there's a psychological barrier to steam and maybe it's somewhat justified in that requires a bit more equipment, etc for a somewhat minimal gain (arguable).

I did just confirm that a HOT first batch sparge is nearly as good as a mash out (maybe even better because this particular time I hit 1.5% better efficiency).

At a few efficiency points here or there, we're really splitting hairs for the sake of experimentation. I don't want anyone to think I really care that much about less than 5% up or down.

I stand by the motto that you should get your mash/grainbed up in temp as high as 169F as soon as you can and for the duration of the sparge if you really want good numbers. Yes, you walk a fine line with astringency but there are tradeoffs in everything. As a secondary factor, breaking down your sparge infusions into more/smaller volume increments seems to have a benefit as well at the price of increased time (vorlauf). You start creeping up on the time like that and you might as well continuous sparge.

Bobby_M said:

Flyguy, I think there's a psychological barrier to steam and maybe it's somewhat justified in that requires a bit more equipment, etc for a somewhat minimal gain (arguable).

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Yeah, I think you are right about the psychological barrier for sure. Regarding the 'minimal' gain -- I disagree there. Lots of guys drop plenty of cash to upgrade to a three keggle system, with stand, pumps, extra burners, etc. just to have the capability to do a step mash without having to do multiple infusions in their cooler. My $30 steam system allows me to do step mashes at least as easily as all that. Anyways, I think you meant using steam just for a mash-out, which now that I read your comment below, makes more sense.

I did just confirm that a HOT first batch sparge is nearly as good as a mash out (maybe even better because this particular time I hit 1.5% better efficiency).

Click to expand...

That is a really useful piece of information, especially if one has maxed out their cooler and can't fit in a mash out. It also is one less step. I will definitely try this. I am also going to try it in combination with a split sparge -- even though a mash-out plus one big sparge worked better for me, I suspect that this technique could work better. Thanks for experimenting and sharing with us all!

I stand by the motto that you should get your mash/grainbed up in temp as high as 169F as soon as you can and for the duration of the sparge if you really want good numbers. Yes, you walk a fine line with astringency but there are tradeoffs in everything.

Click to expand...

Yes, I think this is true as well. I am going to continue to experiment as well, to test this 'hypothesis'. But it makes a lot of logical sense -- it is surprising to me that the method isn't more common.

Regarding astringency, unless you are collecting a third sparge, I bet the gravity stays high enough (and theferore, pH low enough) that even if you went over 170 by a bit, it wouldn't lead to tannin extraction. But that is just an hypothesis, as well, based on what should work in theory.

Cheers!

I went out of my way this batch to test and take note of the grain bed temp after each infusion and the gravity of each runnings since I'm in experimentation stage. If you play with these different methods I'd suggest you do the same so that we can compare notes and rule out any other effects.

I'd like to do a small batch, maybe just to make starter wort, where the mash out takes the bed temp up to like 190 and maintain that temp through the first sparge. I'll drop the temp for the 2nd sparge as the gravity is dropping. If you don't get astringency there, I bet the efficiency would be quite high. I mean, it's fun to learn things but I'm damned happy with 85% so I'd just as soon stop here.

PS: you're right about my steam mash statement... just in terms of gaining eff, it's a small gain. I had not figured in the ability to step mash cuz I'm not there yet.

Bobby_M said:

Ok, so my interpretation of mashout is really about heating the mash into the mid to upper 160F area before first runnings whether you're direct firing, decocting, or infusing. Those of us with cooler MLTs, infusion is the only way. Using beertoolspro, I can tell it I want to infuse into an existing mash with a fixed temp and volume. It will tell me what the new temp will be. Since I can also input and lock in my desired preboil volume, it will subtract the mash out infusion from the 2-batch sparge volumes. By the way, you can go a little thicker on your mash to make room for at least some of the mash out infusion (maybe 1.1 qt/lb).

Here's a rundown of last night's volumes:
Mash 21lbs with 6.5g (1.24qt/lb).
First runnings were 3.5 gallons at 1.075.
Batch 1, 5 gallons @ 178, settled to 166. Running 5.25 @ 1.042.
Batch 2, 4gal @160. Runnings 4.25gal @ 1.022.
Preboil total was 13 gallons @ 1.050 for 87.5% effeciency.

Now, let's say I did have room for a one gallon mashout infusion. I'd just reduce the two batches by 1/2 gallon each.

I think even a one gallon infusion of boiling water will increase efficiency because you're making that sugar more soluable from the start. However, the alternative and next best thing is getting the grain bed up in temp as soon as you can (if not mashout before first runnings, then at least in the first batch infusion).

Click to expand...

So the first sparge is the mash out (rather than a separate step as I had done). I just sparge at 168.

How do you calculate the batch 1 sparge water with grains for a given temperature?

Jeff, I think it's pretty difficult to figure out the equilized temp given a certain mash + infusion situation. That's why I think purchasing a software package for this is the best bang for the buck at only $20-25. Beersmith and Beertoolspro both help in this regard.
I would have never guessed that adding 5 gallons at 178F would have brought my grainbed up to 166F. Now that I know it does, you could take a wild guess and say that it may equalize at about half way between the mash temp and your sparge infusion temp. The ratios of grain weight and infusion volume obviously play into it.

To say it another way, if you don't do a specific high temp mash out infusion prior to first runnings AND you only sparge with 168-170F water, your grain bed is really not hitting the sugar soluability sweet spot. A first sparge at 170 would probably get it up to 158F and a second one would probably get it to 162F. Yes, it's increasing a bit, but not as much as you could. That assumed threshold of tannin extraction (170F) is about the grain bed temp, not the infusion water temp.

This thread could not have come at a better time. I have read every detail in Ken Schwartz's piece on Batch Sparging. Yeah, it made sense to me, but I still don't get the calculations for Batch Sparging as he makes it out to be quite the task. Any one have a simpler method for figuring out what your Grain Bill should be if your are going to Batch Sparge?

RLinNH said:

This thread could not have come at a better time. I have read every detail in Ken Schwartz's piece on Batch Sparging. Yeah, it made sense to me, but I still don't get the calculations for Batch Sparging as he makes it out to be quite the task. Any one have a simpler method for figuring out what your Grain Bill should be if your are going to Batch Sparge?

Click to expand...

Is this the mess of math showing how you should convert your recipe if you are using batch sparging (the one I am thinking of involves derivatives, etc.)?

It is much easier to just take a recipe, use a program like Pro Mash to adjust you base malt to give you the correct OG using your efficiency. Once you get your process down your efficiency shouldn't change that much.

Bobby_M said:

Jeff, I think it's pretty difficult to figure out the equilized temp given a certain mash + infusion situation. That's why I think purchasing a software package for this is the best bang for the buck at only $20-25. Beersmith and Beertoolspro both help in this regard.
I would have never guessed that adding 5 gallons at 178F would have brought my grainbed up to 166F. Now that I know it does, you could take a wild guess and say that it may equalize at about half way between the mash temp and your sparge infusion temp. The ratios of grain weight and infusion volume obviously play into it.

To say it another way, if you don't do a specific high temp mash out infusion prior to first runnings AND you only sparge with 168-170F water, your grain bed is really not hitting the sugar soluability sweet spot. A first sparge at 170 would probably get it up to 158F and a second one would probably get it to 162F. Yes, it's increasing a bit, but not as much as you could. That assumed threshold of tannin extraction (170F) is about the grain bed temp, not the infusion water temp.

Click to expand...

I use Beersmith, but the default is 168 for both sparges.

I think they er on the side of safety. If you infuse water higher than 170 and don't stir right away, there is a chance of hot spots that may pull some tannins. I don't play around though, I dump it in and stir immediately to equalize the temp as fast as possible. I wonder if Beersmith has the flexibility to modify this or not. If not, that's one up for BTP.

Bobby_M said:

I wonder if Beersmith has the flexibility to modify this or not.

Click to expand...

Yep, you can do it no problem. Just type in the mash-out temp you want to hit, and it will calculate the infusion temp (if it is possible for that volume -- it warns you if not).

Man, you're pissing me off now. Here I was trying to justify my blind purchase of BTP and you give me more reason to doubt. ;-)

FlyGuy said:

Yep, you can do it no problem. Just type in the mash-out temp you want to hit, and it will calculate the infusion temp (if it is possible for that volume -- it warns you if not).

Click to expand...

I choose batch sparge option which does not have a mash out (at least that I can see). If I split into two batch sparges, both are 168. I will do some trial and error to gradually get the first sparge up to 168. Let me know if you see another option or work around on this on Beersmith.

JeffNYC said:

I choose batch sparge option which does not have a mash out (at least that I can see). If I split into two batch sparges, both are 168. I will do some trial and error to gradually get the first sparge up to 168. Let me know if you see another option or work around on this on Beersmith.

Click to expand...

I don't have the software in front of me at the moment, but if IIRC this should work: select a mash profile with a mash out. Go into the 'Details' of the profile, and check off both the options to designate a batch sparge and to use equal batch sparge volumes. That should do the trick! (If not, let me know and I will check again when I get home with the software in front of me.)

Tried that (or at least what I think you are saying). Still gives me a mash out, which I assume means water added to the mash to bring the temperature up to 168. Is that what you are suggesting, for the first "sparge" added to the mash before draining off the first runnings?

I was assuming that the first runnings were drawn off (at mashing temperature), then the sparge #1 and #2 split evenly with #1 bringing the temp up to 168 (to mash out) and the second sparging at 168.

JeffNYC said:

Tried that (or at least what I think you are saying). Still gives me a mash out, which I assume means water added to the mash to bring the temperature up to 168. Is that what you are suggesting, for the first "sparge" added to the mash before draining off the first runnings?

I was assuming that the first runnings were drawn off (at mashing temperature), then the sparge #1 and #2 split evenly with #1 bringing the temp up to 168 (to mash out) and the second sparging at 168.

Click to expand...

Ah, OK, now I understand better. No, the mash-out is a separate infusion from the sparges, if you intend to perform two equal-sized batch sparges. By default, Beersmith will attempt to perform ONE batch sparge if you have enough room in your mash tun. Otherwise, it will automatically calculate two sparges of equal volume (assuming you have the option enabled in the mash profile).

So, to fix things, all you should have to do is play with the setting that says something like 'batches that fill xx% of the mash tun'. Drop that percentage until you see two sparges appear -- that's it.

I think there is another way to set up the software to do two batch sparges automatically, but I am not certain without having it in front of me. Sorry.

Now, to really confuse things, you could try Bobby's new experiment and do two equal volume batch sparges, but make the first one hotter to raise the temp of the grainbed after you have lautered your first runnings. But I think that might take some manual effort with the software.

Hope that helps!

You could just experiment. Getting the sparge infusions up to 180F stands no chance of breaking the 170f barrier once temps equalize. Try that and measure your grainbed temps to give you an idea of how much hotter you "could" go.

Bobby_M, just for clarification can you confirm your approach:

Option #1
Two batch sparges (equal in size) with the "mash out" being the sparge #1 (bringing temp to 168). This seems to be what you are suggesting, otherwise one wouldn't need to have sparge #1 at a different temp at sparge #2 as the grains would be brought up to mashout temp with an infusion as below:

The figures:
5 gallon batch
15 lbs of grain
Mash In, 18.75 qt at 171.4 F, 154.0 F, 60 min (1.25 quarts/lb)
Sparge #1, 1.9 gallons (to bring up grain up to 168.0 F)
Sparge #2, 1.9 gallons at 168.0 F


or



Option #2
Mash out as infusion mash, bringing mash to 168 by adding boiling water to the mash, then two batch sparges (equal in size of the remainder)

The figures:
5 gallon batch
15 lbs of grain
Mash In, 16.50 qt at 173.7 F, 154.0 F, 60 min (1.1 quarts/lb)
Mash Out, 7.00 qt 209.1 F, 168.0 F, 10 min
Sparge #1, 1.3 gallons (seem puny for 15 lbs of grain?)
Sparge #2, 1.3 gallons (seem puny for 15 lbs of grain?)

Jeff,
You're right, option 2 does leave you with really small infusions if you split the batch in addition to the mash out. I've never used that much grist for a 5 gallon batch though since my OGs are usually in the upper 40's to mid 50's.

I'd suggest option 1 at least for grain bills this large. Otherwise I'd try option 3, mash out plus one large sparge (not split).

Thanks. I am targeting 1.075 or so on this beer. Guess I can use less grain assuming a "jump" in efficiency to 75% (or dilute chilled wort to fix) the OG. Heaven forbid if I get 85%!

Very helpful feedback and thoughts in the thread.

This is a very good thread... learned a lot. I have read other conflicting things regarding batch sparge speed. Should I go fast , medium, slow?

Thanks,
-J

IMHO, the speed of a batch sparge makes no difference. You want everything to be well saturated but it's nothing a 5 minute stir can't do. After that, you start your vorlauf and the grainbed will set nicely during that short 3-5 minute duration. After that, let it rip.

In fly, it matters.

This has been a great thread to lurk on...

Quick question, does anyone use boiling water to get the mash up to 168 +/- for mashout? (Mash will be at 155 for 60 min)

I was going to use this calculator (http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml), to determine mashout / sparge volume.

Thoughts?

sleepystevenson said:

Quick question, does anyone use boiling water to get the mash up to 168 +/- for mashout? (Mash will be at 155 for 60 min)

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From the 4th post in this thread:

Bobby_M said:

Oh, and the mash out volume is whatever volume of boiling water it takes to get me into the upper 160's which I learn from beertoolspro.

Click to expand...

This is a great thread, I only have a few AG batches under my belt so my technique is still up in the air anyway, so it's helpful to have a good batch sparging technique to target.

Bobby_M said:

Mash out, single sparge = 80% (MOSS)
Mash out, double sparge = 86% (MODS)

I did a 10 gallon batch yesterday and hit 80% again using the Mash Out + single sparge. I knew it could have been better because the very last of the sparge runnings was still 1.025. In my MODS (mash out double sparge) trial, the last running was exactly 1.010.

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By double sparge, do you mean that you cut your entire sparge volume in 1/2 and sparge 2 times with 1/2 volume each time?

Hmmm... interesting.. I'm going to try this tomorrow... Mash & run mash off? ....Or should I add 1st sparge (1/2 of total sparge water) on top of mash before run off? I have always followed Denny Conn & shot for 2 equal runoffs...
Thanks!

Thanks, Jaeger. This post is so long, i forgot about that by the time i got to the end and posted the question!

i think ill try a double sparge on my upcoming IPA thanks for the help all!