Very Low Efficiency

This is my first post. I have only brewed about 5 all grain batches. Now that I have down the basic mechanics of things, the last two batches I began to measure my efficiency. However, it is very low (45% and then 37%). I have batch sparged and fly sparged. I drain at a very slow pace. The grain is coming pre-crushed from MoreBeer, I have checker-boarded the grain to avoid channeling---can't figure it out.

My last 5 gallon batch had a 20 lbs. grain bill. I used 7.5 gallons of water in the mash and sparged with 2.5 gallons. Maybe somewhere in here lies the issue.

Here is my question: In Palmer's How to Brew he is saying a typical mash rate is 1.5 quarts per lb. of grain and to sparge at a rate of 1.5 times the amount used for mashing. For a 20 lb. grain bill that would be 30 quarts for the mash and 45 quarts for the sparge for a total of 75 quarts----18.75 gallons of water for a 5 gallon batch. Am I reading this right? If so, even given the loss from grain absorption, etc. I am thinking I need a larger kettle to hold such a large amount of wort. I am guessing I would then just need to boil it down till I hit my target gravity.

Is there something I am missing? Other ideas? I am tired of adding DME to get where I want to be.

Thanks!

One of the things I've found with higher OG beer is lower efficiency.

The reason is what you've hit on- in order to hit your volume, you generally undersparge. That's some to just accept, normally. For me, I get a 75% efficiency with beers of 1.065 or less, and a 65-68% efficiency with really big beers.

But in your case, it's way too low and not something to just accept.

We can help you trouble shoot this.

For starters, I've never ordered crushed grain from Morebeer.com, but I assume it has to be like most other crushes. How did the grain look? Did it look like most/all of the grain was crushed? Or where there lots of whole pieces of grain?

What kind of false bottom do you have? When you batch sparge, what is your technique? For fly sparging, to you keep at least 1" of water above the grainbed the whole time?

To be honest, I didn't pay much attention to the crush. I just figured Morebeer knows what they are doing. Next time I'll pay closer attention to it.

When fly sparging I did keep an inch above the grain.

When batch sparging I just added the water, let it sit for 15 minutes, then drained.

I am using a cooler with a coiled copper tube as the false bottom:
http://schillinghomebrewing.weebly.com/my-equipment.html

For that coiled copper bottom, I don't think fly sparging will work out for you. You'd have to have some channelling, just from the set up. But there is no reason you'd get a low efficiency with batch sparging with that lautering set up.

When you did your batch sparge, did you drain completely, and then stir in your sparge water and stir like it owed you money?

Haven't experienced lower efficiencies with higher gravity beers (1.080+). If you're brewing 5 gallons and want say 7 gallons wort then suggest adjusting the 2nd runnings (batch sparge) water volume to make up the difference after measuring 1st running wort volume.

I'm currently getting 80+% efficiency using this method without mash out temp. Perhaps you could post a bit more about the process.

How are you calculating your efficiency?

It may help to see what you are trying to brew, and more details.. what temp did you mash at? What kind of vessel are you using to do mashing in?

What was your gravity reading when starting fermentation?

Have you done standard beers in 5 gallon batches and had similar efficiency results?

woops.. double post.

I appreciate all your responses in assisting me--what a great forum!

I am going to attempt to answer each of the questions posed for me here below in no particular order:

When I sparged I do not believe that I fully drained it. Should I tip the cooler to get the last bit out?

I didn't stir it up much at all when sparging. Should I? And if so, should I only at the beginning or through the entire process? I could never find much info on that in my research.

I am using the cooler and false bottom shown at this site: http://schillinghomebrewing.weebly.com/my-equipment.html

I am calculating the efficiency off Beersmith software.

I mashed in at 154.

I checked the gravity of the run off from the sparge once (midway through the process) and it read 1.046.

The gravity read 1.082 at start of fermentation. This is with 20 lbs of grain and 3.5 lbs of DME. However, Beersmith estimated my OG to be 1.101.

I have only measured my efficiency on 2 batches now---both being rather large beers and both coming in real low.

As Yooper posted earlier, that manifold (coiled copper bottom) won't do for fly sparging. I have a similar "inefficient" manifold and get much better efficiency batch sparging.

Getting all the wort out most certainly improves efficiency.

If you are batch sparging, stir the heck out of it when you add the sparge. You don't need to stir other than that during the sparge portion. Also, with 20 lbs of grain, you are going to need to stir the heck out of it when you mash in. If you aren't taking 5-10 minutes to mash in, you probably aren't getting it uniformly mixed.

For a really big beer, you probably want to lower that mash temp as bit unless you are adding sugars. If you do hit 1.1 for OG, you are going to want a very fermentable wort to avoid sweetness issues.

2.5 gallons isn't a lot of sparge water. I'd up that at least a gallon and then just boil longer get get back to the desired volume.

How long are you mashing? Have you checked for conversion?

I am mashing in for 60 minutes. However, I have never checked for conversion. I'll have to research how to do so.

I've never checked for conversion. How necessary is it to check?

TrubHead said:

I've never checked for conversion. How necessary is it to check?

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Not very necessary at all. Unless you have major problems, after a 60 min. mash you WILL have conversion. If you want to check, use Kai's conversion efficiency chart...

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph..._Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency

tarcrarc said:

I am mashing in for 60 minutes. However, I have never checked for conversion. I'll have to research how to do so.

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Crush is almost always the #1 factor in efficiency. If the crush is poor, all the other fixes won't help much.

For proper batch sparging technique, see www.dennybrew.com

Maybe a dumb question, but are you sure the grains were actually crushed?

My efficiency was pretty bad when I first started too, not sure how bad, as I never did all the math. I just know that I wasn't hitting my OG marks at all. So I switched to only doing batch sparging (stirring it for 5-10 minutes when water is added), I have the brew shop run my grain through the crusher twice, and I mash for 90 minutes. I haven't even had my water tested to check Ph levels and such, maybe that will come next. But i know that I hit almost all my beers dead on now, and I will only usually add a pound of extra base malt to my grain bill to ensure I get my OG numbers and volume. I am using the standard 5 gallon round cooler with ball valve adapted to a tee fitting with the water supply line mesh formed in to a loop. I would say I have to be in the 70-75 % range now. I don't bother calculating cause the beer is tasting good, and that is what matters to me. Could I be saving some money? Yes, but it's probably not enough money for me to get bent out of shape about.

How do you mash in?

There are two schools of thought: Add the water to the cooler first and add the grain to the cooler first. I've gotten 75% or higher with both methods, but one is easier to not get dough balls.

I've found it's much easier to get better mixing with water first and then using a grain scoop to add my grains while stirring. If you're just dumping the grains in all at once and giving it a stir, then you've got a lot of dough balls and will get poor efficiency.

Yep - +1 on crush. Get a BC, crank it down to 35 thousands and you will be amazed with the results!

Crush. I got a mill and didn't change one other thing about my process, went from 55-60% efficiency to 80% immediately.

Yooper said:

For starters, I've never ordered crushed grain from Morebeer.com, but I assume it has to be like most other crushes.

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It ain't. I stopped ordering from them after a stretch of really amazingly low efficiency - 40%+/-. I complained repeatedly, and eventually found out that they had changed mills and were milling coarser to address stuck sparge concerns. The grain I was getting from them was a mess - there was actually an inch thick layer of genuinely uncrushed grain floating atop the mash after the hour. Eventually they had to give me a grain mill at a greatly reduced price to retain me as a customer. I'm hoping they address this problem soon, because it is a great company and a real bummer. Let me see if I have a still of the MB grain... I'm not sure if this does it justice but there was a TON of uncrushed grains.

I would say crush as well. But your sparge seems pretty low for a 20lb grain bill. 7.5 gallon mash is what I'd do as well. You'll lose roughly 3-4 gallons to grain absorption. Honestly, for really big beers, I'd up your sparge and just plan to boil longer to compensate. Stir the hell out of it for 5-10 minutes and go to it.

bottlebomber said:

It ain't.

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Wow, that's truly craptastic.

danielbt said:

Wow, that's truly craptastic.

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You're telling me. Actually their customer service is excellent though. They first time I had a problem I trying to make an IIPA, projected OG 1.095. It came in a 1.060 and that was after a pound of sugar. I get very predictable results from my system so I called and complained, described my process, and after they were satisfied I wasn't a totally noob they refunded my ingredients via gift cert. Did a large order from them a month later, ~$300 and instructed them to crush the grain twice. Same crappy results. It was after that that they offered me the deal on the mill. They really need to get this taken care of, but their customer service is top of the line.

Thanks for your assistance regarding this issue. I think I will go ahead and get my own grain mill. Any suggestions on brand name and/or other details to look for? Someone suggested to get a "BC". Sorry, not sure what that is!

tarcrarc said:

Thanks for your assistance regarding this issue. I think I will go ahead and get my own grain mill. Any suggestions on brand name and/or other details to look for? Someone suggested to get a "BC". Sorry, not sure what that is!

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It just comes down to what you can afford. Ugly Junk Corona mill is getting some people 80% efficiency for under 40 bucks. Monster Mill 2-2.0 is getting other folks the same results for around $250 but looking sexy while doing it. Just decide on a budget and start doing the research, there are a zillion mills and opinions on these mills out there.

tarcrarc said:

Thanks for your assistance regarding this issue. I think I will go ahead and get my own grain mill. Any suggestions on brand name and/or other details to look for? Someone suggested to get a "BC". Sorry, not sure what that is!

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I have a JS Malt Mill and get a perfectly good crush and haven't had below 70% since I got it (normally 75-80%). My brother has the Barley Crusher and gets the same results. Both of these run almost $100 cheaper than the Monster Mill.

Chances are, your LHBS is using the Malt Mill, at least according to my LHBS owner.

With the ones on the market, you can't really go wrong. I recommend getting the Malt Mill, Barley Crusher, or Monster Mill so you can automate easily and get a consistent crush. Attach a drill to it and you'll crush 20 lbs of grain in less than 5 minutes.