Flemish Red and Secondary

I have a question about using the roselare yeast blend for a flemish red, and i've been reading through posts and it seems like getting differing opinions, so i was hoping someone could put this to bed. Everything i've read about the flemish red style, indicates that the beer is racked off the primary at some point, into a secondary (usually made of wood- where many of the bugs reside), versus a lambic, which is left on the lees as they provide nutrients for the brett down the stretch. The question i have is that, when using a yeast blend such as the wyeast roselare, would racking do something similar to propagation- that is, create a new ratio of different organisms, throwing the environment out of "balance"? i couldn't really find anything too specific on their website, other than the warning against propagation, so if anyone has any info on what the best technique is, i would sure appreciate it. I have always racked, but do not feel like i am getting the "sour cherry pie" flavor that i am looking for and am wondering if this has something to do with it. Am i leaving bugs behind? I realize that blending is the key, and i think i saw something oldsock posted a while back about making a malt vinegar and using that to blend- but i have had people tell me they got good results right from the initial batch fermentation, so i am curious to hear opinions...

I think the reason these beers are secondaried is because, in Belgium, they are just primaried with a pure sacch strain or blend of sacch and lactic acid bacteria. This can be from four to eigght weeks. Then they go into a large barrel or foudre where more bacteria and Brettanomyces are introduced from the wood. These foudres are huge- Rodenbach's large tun is 5,280 gallons and their small tun is 3,168 gallons. They can stay in these tuns for 18 months to three years. A light beer may also be made for blending, which is done right from the primary.

Thus I have always felt that the best strategy for the homebrewer without a barrel is to either primary with a fairly clean strain and secondary with the blend, or primary with the blend and leave on the lees. I would agree with you that pitching a blend, then racking after initial fermentation would upset the balance of bacteria and yeasts. For the most part, they are not well established due to wort oxygenation and rapid sacch fermentation.

I would disagree with the last statement. If you start with a blend the sacc will ferment out and flocculate. At this point the rest of the organisms are still in solution. When you rack you take the rest of the organisms with the beer, so it makes no sense that you would adjust the blend.

Racking or not will effect the beer in the fact that if you rack the brett and bacteria will not be able to feed on the sacc. If this will have a huge effect? I don't know.

Just to see if there is any conclusive answer to this in gonna bring this back. From what I can gather you can leave this solely on primary. If you think about it this is more or less the lambic blend but with acetobacter and minus a sherry strain. With a lambic you would let it go for 1+ years in primary as the Brett and other bacteria will eat the autolized yeast as food. That being said why would a Flanders red and the roselare blend be any different ? But I'm no expert by any means so if anyone has the answer please let me know.

Aschecte said:

Just to see if there is any conclusive answer to this in gonna bring this back. From what I can gather you can leave this solely on primary. If you think about it this is more or less the lambic blend but with acetobacter and minus a sherry strain. With a lambic you would let it go for 1+ years in primary as the Brett and other bacteria will eat the autolized yeast as food. That being said why would a Flanders red and the roselare blend be any different ? But I'm no expert by any means so if anyone has the answer please let me know.

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Ive done it both ways depending on how lazy I am, but I generally do not rack F Reds.

Leaving on the cake makes for a slightly more funky beer than if you rack

ryane said:

Ive done it both ways depending on how lazy I am, but I generally do not rack F Reds.

Leaving on the cake makes for a slightly more funky beer than if you rack

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That's great !!! Bring on the funk, so when you do this do you just leave it for a year or more and does anyone use oak cubes ?

Aschecte said:

That's great !!! Bring on the funk, so when you do this do you just leave it for a year or more and does anyone use oak cubes ?

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I may be wrong, but oak is not normally associated with this style. Yes lots of them are fermented/conditioned in oak barrels, but they are old oak, and the barrels are more to give the bugs a place to hide out rather than contributing to the beer. I believe a number of commercial are using large steel or HDPE containers to age these beers now.

I add old/used oak to all of mine. I don't know if it does any good. If Brett and/or the bugs feed on it, or hide it in, I don't know, but it doesn't hurt. I transfer these same pieces of oak from batch to batch (no boiling or sanitizing).

I did not rack mine will know in January how it turns out.

beerman0001 said:

I did not rack mine will no in January how it turns out.

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how long have you let this go for so far ?

I am 9 months in so far.