BCS 460 vs Brewtroller - what say you??

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They are both good products but it's a little like comparing apples to oranges. The Brewtroller along with controlling heating elements and solenoids and motors can measure volume and has prewritten software that allows for things like automated HLT fill, Strike water addition, sparge and chill cycles. The BCS-460 can control heating elements, motors and solenoids but can not measure volume and does not have canned software. The brewtroller uses an alpha-numeric display and does not require a PC although there is some software that can you use to run from a PC that gives a BCS-460 type display. The BCS-460 absolutely needs a PC to run. The brewtroller is a bit more DIY involved than the BCS-460.
 
Having not used Brewtroller:

I can run my BCS of my laptop, any computer connected to my network, and my iPhone. The graphical display is really why I bought the BCS over the BT. Also, as mentioned above is easy to setup and get working. I don't have a need to measure all of those things the BT does. I think the BCS will just keep getting better and more powerful. It took me less than an 30mins to hook up 4 SSR, 3 temp probes, and program my first a test brew. I use it in manual mode now because I like being involved in the brew more than letting it be automated.
 
Ranger9913 said:
Having not used Brewtroller:

I can run my BCS of my laptop, any computer connected to my network, and my iPhone. The graphical display is really why I bought the BCS over the BT. Also, as mentioned above is easy to setup and get working. I don't have a need to measure all of those things the BT does. I think the BCS will just keep getting better and more powerful. It took me less than an 30mins to hook up 4 SSR, 3 temp probes, and program my first a test brew. I use it in manual mode now because I like being involved in the brew more than let it be automated.
Click to expand...

I would agree. The BCS offers a nice interface with the computer. The brewtroller does also now. The real difference between is that the Brewtroller is more of an brewery automation platform and the BCS-460 is more for those looking for four PID's, a very pretty interface and to simply switch a pump or solenoid if needed.
 
Having the BrewTroller, I'd say this:

At this stage, if you want the ultimate flexibility, stand-alone capability is important to you, *and if* open source software appeals to you, go with the BrewTroller. The BCS-460 is a godsend for those that like to program, but not diddle with raw hardware and embedded controllers so much.

Linux vs well-designed Microsoft stuff, here.:mug:
 
Here's an objective explanation of features/differences of both:
http://www.brewershardware.com/automation.html

I'll even go one step further, and add a 3rd category from the list in the link above. In my mind, there are 3 levels of automation.
  1. Basic Temp control. Loves, Rancos, Auber PIDs. Control the temperature, no pumps/valves.
  2. Assisted Brewing. Gives brewer an interface into the equipment. Perform 'steps' of the brewing process automatically, but rely on user intervention as needed. Controls temps, pumps, valves, float switches. Logs temperatures/data for batch repeatability and equipment tuning.
  3. One Touch Brewing. Give the machine a recipe, and get cooled wort pumped into a fermentor. Handles EVERYTHING for the brewer.

[Caution, biased opinion below. I manufacture BCS control systems, and also provide BCS and PLC design services, so please take with a grain of salt]

I believe the BCS and the Brewtroller fit into the Assisted Brewing category. Both aspire to be in the One Touch category. This is why the BCS gets some flack for not having volume sensors (working on it)... It was originally designed for Assisted Brewing, not One Touch. IMHO if you are going for One Touch brewing, you're better off with industrial PLCs. These are some complicated systems, and this is exactly what PLCs are designed for. One Touch brewing is a step function in complexity and price for PLCs/sensors/HMI/actuators/safety/etc. The only reason that you wouldn't use a PLC for a One Touch system is price... But if you've already decided to go this route, the price difference is very relative.

Assisted Brewing is affordable, and is within reach of most homebrewers. It can make brewdays more enjoyable, and save time and effort. The BCS and Brewtroller both give you an inexpensive interface into your rig, and are custom built for brewing. [plug]The BCS allows you control/monitor remotely, as well as load recipes via configuration files. It also displays interactive temperature logs to help you dial in your system. The BCS is fully programmable, and can adapt to any kind of system. It can also run multiple processes simultaneously, like cooling a fermentor, running a keg fridge, as well as controlling a brew rig at the same time. It ships as a blank slate, but can load config files from one of the example systems, or grab the configuration of another BCS user.[/plug]

Also, a common misconception, the BCS does not need a PC to run. You need one to program it, but it is a self contained networked device. I usually run mine with my iPod Touch. That gives you a wireless touchscreen interface, which works very well.
 
eccsynd,

right now i'm looking to just monitor temps. I want to monitor strike/sparge water, while monitoring my mash (soon to be RIM). I am also looking at monitoring the outlet pump temp as a 3rd item. Right now i am not looking to automate, but 6 months ago i wasnt going to go with a RIMs system either :). Would the BCS be good for this application - Monitoring with the possibility of minor control later? Also, i am not a programmer. is there soem woftware that i can download for free or slightly tweak?
 
I've been stressing which to go with over the past week.

I think it's going to come down to "do I want to do ALL the programming, or just some of it?"

Lazy wins in this case. Sure, I could build the brewtroller from parts, mill out an enclosure, and program the thing, but why not spend the time tearing apart an old airport express and make a BCS wireless instead. It means less time building/programming and more time brewing. To me, that's the only difference.

I'm gonna buy a BCS. Hell, for $16 bux I'll probably get an expansion board and make an enclosure for it as well.

YMMV.
B
 
eccsynd said:
I believe the BCS and the Brewtroller fit into the Assisted Brewing category. Both aspire to be in the One Touch category. This is why the BCS gets some flack for not having volume sensors (working on it)... It was originally designed for Assisted Brewing, not One Touch. IMHO if you are going for One Touch brewing, you're better off with industrial PLCs. These are some complicated systems, and this is exactly what PLCs are designed for. One Touch brewing is a step function in complexity and price for PLCs/sensors/HMI/actuators/safety/etc. The only reason that you wouldn't use a PLC for a One Touch system is price... But if you've already decided to go this route, the price difference is very relative.
Click to expand...

I agree that the BCS-460 is a very good product. I do take exception to your statements about the PLC. Right now Brewtroller can accomplish one touch brewing. The brewtroller allows the user to enter a recipe and it will in turn will fill your HLT, bring it to the right temperature, move the strike water to the MLT, control your RIMS or HERMS, stir if you add a stirrer motor, sparge (Batch or Fly), boil, recirculate and chill. The are also users that have built automatic grain feeders and hop adders. That sounds like one touch to me. The next version of the Brewtroller will be much more robust as they will be moving away from the Sanguino platform and moving to something more robust and be able to control Modbus devices. There is no doubt that the Brewtroller is more DIY intensive, but that lends itself to more versatility and if desired, the brewer can create a platform that truely is one touch.
 
Obviously as one of the developers for BrewTroller I'm biased. I do think the DIY component of BrewTroller is made into a bigger issue than it really is. The BCS comes with an enclosure and power supply and the BrewTroller doesn't. Both the BCS and BrewTroller require you to wire up your sensors and outputs. The BrewTroller relay board makes it easier to connect pump and valve outputs in my opinion than the BCS. You simply get a set of terminals that act like a switch for high power AC or DC outputs. Heat outputs (generally used for PID with a solid state relay) still require an external relay.

All that said, Jeremiah and I realize that not selling complete control panels with power supplies holds some users back and we intend to develop some to make available in the store.

We are also working on developing an add-on board that provides network connectivity (wired or wifi) and SD Card logging. BrewTroller 2.0 firmware is currently in Beta testing and includes new features to support external user interfaces instead of the char LCD and encoder. With the add-on board the BrewTroller would operate very similar to the BCS allowing and network device with a web browser to act as the user interface. We feel this board will make BrewTroller attractive to those who want a PC, iPhone, etc to be a part of their brewing hardware.

The last thing I'll mention is sawdustguy's reference to 'the next version of BrewTroller'. The concept is currently completely vaporware. It's not really intended to be a new version of BrewTroller. We have no plans to abandon the current design. This project's goal would be to develop an open source Linux-based PLC engine and HMI that could be used for any type of process automation. This project would serve a niche user who wants an advanced PLC solution (for brewing or any other application) but needs something more affordable than the commercial solutions available on the market today.
 
I did a lot of research and I dont think I ever want a "One Touch" brewery so I went with the BCS. It will just be nice to be able to monitor my temps throughout my process and eventually automate certain parts.

Also... one piece of advice for the brewtroller, if I google it, I want to see a simple explanation of what it does. The website sucks.
 
Kudos to EccSynd and mattreba/jcdillin for being able to discuss each other products and the pros and cons in respectful manner.

Too often sales people try to sell their product by ripping down someone elses. I for one, appreciate the tone of this discussion.
 
Interesting discussion but the unanswered question is the necessary skills and funds it takes to build an automated system. Both control platforms have their merits and faults but this is not a plug and play type activity for the most part, and definately not cheap to build when all the parts and time spent are added up. The biggest problem will be scope creep when you are building the system and want additional features.
 
I like the BCS, I never build with automated valves and such... no one that has approached me to build for them has ever wanted that level of automation in a 1BBL or less config.

They do however marvel at how clean the interface is with the BCS, it is easy to program your own processes by creating different states and state jumps... it is also easy to reconfigure what input is controlling what output, it is a mouse click. Oh, you dont want HERMS OUTLET TEMP to control the HLT HEATING, okay... CLICK now it is HLT TEMP. that is controlling the HLT heating. Elegant.

They also like the idea of wireless control, which is easy to accomplish with the BCS. They can carry their laptop into their office and still monitor the brew, when it alarms, then they know they are needed to dump the grain in the MLT, or to connect a hose from the BK to the plate chiller etc...

The BCS is also nice because even if the computer you are on dies... (battery,loss of connection) the BCS is still doing what you programmed it to do, it isnt much of an issue. As long as you START the process, the BCS is carrying it out, whether you are connected to it or not.

Never used Brewtroller... but I know the reactions I get when I fire up a process on the BCS and let potential buyers watch it go. Much of it is the interface, but it will do anything you want to do, if you arent out there fully automating your brewery. Lets face it, most HBers are not $$$$$
 
Do any of the current brewing controller projects support platinum RTD sensors? I started building my system using these sensors and some PID temp controllers. But, being the tech geek that I am, I started researching doing my own controller/DAQ system. I've had a hell of a time finding an affordable way to get usable reading from these sensors.

Heck if I could just find a prebuilt version of this oscillator circuit I'd be over the moon.
 
Yes, CodeRage is in the process of developing a module to utilize RTD temp sensors for the BrewTroller.
 
Whats the learning curve for the BCS?
I'm not a programer. I just want to monitor temps, turn on elements, and run pumps.
How does a novice 'learn' to use the BCS?

ps I'm >< this close to buying it anyway, just trying to make sure it's the right decision, and find out where to start.
 
I am no programmer or electrician as well. I was able to plug in the BCS and with only the instructions on the Embedded Control Concepts website I was able to do everything I wanted/needed to do without a hitch on the first brewday. that includes monitoring 3 temps, and controlling 2 heating elements. Running pumps would be even easier, and you could turn them on and off as part of the process you are on, or with a mouse click.

It is quite easy to learn, rest assured that part will be easy. It's all manipulated within a web browser.

No complaints so far, only praise! I love "Assisted Brewing"! :D
 
BCS 460 NIB never wired or energized i'll let go below $187 it cost me.
PM if interested and talk as spinal surgeries have stopped life and any
future brewing build ideas and project.
 
never got a response on this. do the built in PIDs have their own logic?

kegtoe said:
eccsynd,

right now i'm looking to just monitor temps. I want to monitor strike/sparge water, while monitoring my mash (soon to be RIM). I am also looking at monitoring the outlet pump temp as a 3rd item. Right now i am not looking to automate, but 6 months ago i wasnt going to go with a RIMs system either :). Would the BCS be good for this application - Monitoring with the possibility of minor control later? Also, i am not a programmer. is there soem woftware that i can download for free or slightly tweak?
Click to expand...
 
kegtoe said:
never got a response on this. do the built in PIDs have their own logic?
Click to expand...

What exactly do you mean by "have their own logic"? You associate a temp probe with an output and set it for heat or cool operation. You can then put it into a "process" and choose to have it PID, differentially or duty cycle controlled. If the process is running, then the heating/cooling function runs on its own.

The software for the BCS system is embedded in the controller, there isn't anything to download and demo. You can run the demo system on their website to see how things are setup though. See info here on running the demo: http://forum.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=48
 
well, aparently im an idiot because i cant make heads or tails of this demo on the BCS.

I want to build a sculpture, i have 3 10 gallon pots and am currently building my rims tube. I'll use some sort of PID to control the RIMs tube but i would like to read temp on my other 2 vessels. I can spend $70 on 2 brewmometers. or i can wire my set-up electricaly for the sem price or cheaper. I thought the BCS might be the tool that would allow me to PID control my RIMs, and monitor the temps in my HLT and BK. But if i cant figure out how to control the god damn thing i might as well jsut buy 1 PID for the tube 2 displays for my temps sensors abd put it in an enclosure. I'm trying to figure out the best way here. The way i see it, im going to need an enclosure either way. Do i want to put teh BCS in it and hook it up to my laptop, or do i just want to have everything displayed on the enlosure via the PID display and temp displays.
 
The BCS goes into your enclosure with any SSR's that you want to control. The BCS has a network connection that you use to allow your computer to display the functions.

My enclosure has only two manual DPST switches on the outputs for the 240v heating elements to allow for complete disconnection of the output voltage and two SPDT switches to allow me to directly control pumps or let the BCS do it. I'll be adding master start and e-stop switches with my next revision.

The web browser on my laptop computer shows all of the BCS functions and allows software control of heating elements and pumps.
 
kegtoe, sounds like you want to use Manual Mode. Its the most straight forward way to enter parameters into the BCS. Just follow the instructions below, you can type in a temperature setpoint and hit Apply, and that's about all there is to it. This will allow you to do the work of multiple PIDs, and also give you more future automation options.

From the ECC wiki, http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Programming
Manual Mode

The best place to start with BCS programming is Manual Mode. Manual Mode gives a straightforward input method to control the outputs. But first, visit System Settings to give Outputs and Temp Inputs identifiable names.
Enter into Manual Mode by clicking the appropriate box in the Run/Stop Processes sidebar. This will enable Manual Mode, noted by the green 'Running' light, and bring the Manual Mode menu into view.
Each output has a unique set of parameters. There are four different ways that the BCS can control an output in a state.
  1. Direct - Directly force and output ON or OFF.
  2. Duty Cycle - Set the duty cycle percent ON over a programmable period. See Output PWM Control
  3. Differential - Control the output by associating it with a temperature input and hold the temperature within a defined temperature window (swing).
  4. PID - Proportional Integral Derivative controller, also associated with a temperature input. See PID Implementation
All settings must be saved via the "Apply" button for them to take effect. Manual Mode is also great for initially setting up the system to verify I/O connections, or to finish up miscellaneous tasks that aren't programmed as processes.

500px-Mmode.jpg
Click to expand...
 
this isnt much help. i tried this thing like 4 or 5 times the last several months. i dont even see the guages or how to change them from text to guage.

I'm not sure what the point of manual mode is. I cant seem to force it to do anything. Like i said all i want to do is control a RIMs heater and monitor 3 other fields. I set up my inputs and output but now what? Manual mode dosnt give me any options.

Maybe if you guys could put together a demo DVD that steps through this it would help. I'm just not getting anywhere.

eccsynd said:
kegtoe, sounds like you want to use Manual Mode. Its the most straight forward way to enter parameters into the BCS. Just follow the instructions below, you can type in a temperature setpoint and hit Apply, and that's about all there is to it. This will allow you to do the work of multiple PIDs, and also give you more future automation options.
QUOTE]
Click to expand...
 
kegtoe said:
this isnt much help. i tried this thing like 4 or 5 times the last several months. i dont even see the guages or how to change them from text to guage.
Click to expand...
If you can't see the guages, you likely are using IE. You need to either use Firefox for it or use IE9. It uses HTML5 to render the guages, so some browsers don't work.
 
kegtoe said:
i dont even see the guages or how to change them from text to guage.
Click to expand...
What web browser are you running? The gauges won't show in Internet Explorer. You need to be running another browser like Firefox for them to appear.

I'm not sure what the point of manual mode is. I cant seem to force it to do anything. Like i said all i want to do is control a RIMs heater and monitor 3 other fields. I set up my inputs and output but now what? Manual mode dosnt give me any options.
Click to expand...
Manual mode just lets you directly control the outputs without programming the processes (timers, exit conditions, etc.). The only options available in manual mode (for the devices setup in the system settings) are on and off, and if you want to maintain temps, how (differential, duty cycle, or PID). Are you not seeing the devices at all or are you not able to control them? How do you have your RIMS heater hooked up to the BCS?
 
Enable Manual Mode in the left hand menu. A green light next to it will appear, and it will bring up the Manual Mode output control table as seen in the screenshot above. Set your RIMS heater to "PID Controlled", enter the desired temp setpoint, and hit apply. Done.
 

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