cyanmonkey
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What did you for pH correction?
Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner
- Thread starter CSI - CandiSyrup
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Bottoms_Up
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So, proper carbonation was not an issue. I'm not sure what else could explain it.
mbbransc
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For 5gal batches of light colored beers, I usually need to use 4oz acidulated malt to get me to 5.3. I don't have a note of it here so I may have been a touch high.
jtp137
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Infection?
mbbransc
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I won't rule it out but it tastes fine. Good, in fact. No foaming, off-aroma's or flavors. Maybe they'll develop as it ages if that's the case. I'll open another soon and see if it's changing at all.
cyanmonkey
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I won't rule it out but it tastes fine. Good, in fact. No foaming, off-aroma's or flavors. Maybe they'll develop as it ages if that's the case. I'll open another soon and see if it's changing at all.
Foam looks ok. Was it just one bottle you had issues with?
Foam stability can be a function of low pH (specificaly low).
mbbransc
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This is the bottle. I snapped a quick pic. Like I mentioned, it was very much like pouring a soda. CO2 escaping creates a brief head but after it has sat, it appears flat, even though it's not.
brew_darrymore
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Did you follow the recipe? I had a stout that was well carbonated but had no head. I used 2lb of oats in it, and their oils killed the head formation.
You didn't use oats, I suppose?
mbbransc
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Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
It appears as though you did everything correctly. The only other option that seems to be left is the glass ware itself. I have read that household soaps such as common dish soap and dishwashing soap have a significant detrimental effect on head retention in beer. Is it possible that your glass still had some residual soap left inside?
Not to be unhelpful, but how does the beer taste? Least we forget, the head of a beer is window dressing...
mbbransc
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FANTASTIC! I've handed out a couple of bottles to beer buds. All have enjoyed it and two commented that it may be the best quad they've ever had. One asked if he could come over next brew day to watch the magic. My brew partner gets annoyed with me because I'm hypercritical, but I honestly just want things exactly as I've thought it out in my head. If something is off, I'd like to know how to fix it!!
I poured another last night with the same issue. Could be my grain? Could be my BeerGun (cleaning agent?)? Could be my bottles? I'm just not sure. I also bottled a bourbon impy stout at the same time and it's head is perfect. I'll rebrew sometime and see if it is any different.
Thx for all the troubleshooting help everyone.
OP
OP
CSI - CandiSyrup
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There are a couple of factors that have affected our head retention in the past, (we corrected them early on):
Too much protease creation from stressed yeast or using a yeast cake as the pitch, (the most common cause).
Remedy: Use krausen with good counts for pitching in high ABV recipes.
High production of fusels due to fermentation temps above 84-85F
Remedy: Keep primary temps controlled at or around 80-81F in the Westy clone.
Other factors might be surfactants (soaps mentioned above), low protein grist, acidity problems (< pH 5.0), and mashing too low (below 144F).
Just my .02
cyanmonkey
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Cutterman
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Decided to do the single malt version on CSI website. Started at 1.089. Followed term temps and got stuck at .020. After 10 days racked to secondary and used some yeast cake to make a new starter. Captured Krausen with a system I built after seeing CSI's design (thanks for posting your design, it allowed me to build one similar). Re-pitched and after three days down to 1.013. Crashed to 55 degrees so we'll see. Also I used all 3 pounds of syrup to raise my gravity, I fell a little short. After a couple of days I'll rack again and begin to lager. So far taste dang good.
If you get the pitch rate and fermentation temperatures right, it can reach final gravity in 6 days, but if conditions are not ideal it can chug on for a couple of weeks or even longer. Be sure to let the temperature rise at least to the high 70s.
Cutterman
Active Member
I under pitched mine and this is why I had to re-pitch. I use a fermentation chamber so my temps are dead on. I new I was probably under pitching, but thought I would see what happens.
WLP-530 ferments like crazy, but it can die off as it did in my case. I use a 1.25" hose out of 6.5 gal carboy for blow-off.
WLP-530 ferments like crazy, but it can die off as it did in my case. I use a 1.25" hose out of 6.5 gal carboy for blow-off.
Nico93
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Tested another one right now, sure it's already good but I think some age is worth wait!
I think I prefer rochefort 10 clone (from csi Web site) despite I had poor attenuation on this one!
But I also prefer rochefort 10 than westvleteren 12! Thanks csi for this recipes !
Here the rochefort 10 clone
I think I prefer rochefort 10 clone (from csi Web site) despite I had poor attenuation on this one!
But I also prefer rochefort 10 than westvleteren 12! Thanks csi for this recipes !
Here the rochefort 10 clone
How long have you been aging this beer? Looks delicious!
OP
OP
CSI - CandiSyrup
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That's really beautiful Nico.
I have the saq pious version fermenting now...and am going to do the CSI version next. I just sampled the saq version at five days, 1.012 gravity and it is very astringent. It is really bitter, strong and with no hint of dried or dark fruits or gentle spice. Its just all over the board and not tasty.
I am looking for this to be consumed starting 12/16 so its a long long way away from consumption.
I have made big heavy stouts in the past, but they generally were young and yummy after fermentation...horrible during aging, but then settled after 6-12 months depending on the beer. I assume this beer will come into its own, but was wondering if others had similar experiences when it was extremely young.
I did have a temp spike at the 24 hour mark that had the temp of a thermowell at 86 when I got home from work. It hadn't completely taken off before I left in the morning and was hovering at 78. It spiked while out of the house for work so I bet it was a couple hours at that higher temp.
I know its too soon to fret but wanted to see what others were tasting immediately after primary.
I am looking for this to be consumed starting 12/16 so its a long long way away from consumption.
I have made big heavy stouts in the past, but they generally were young and yummy after fermentation...horrible during aging, but then settled after 6-12 months depending on the beer. I assume this beer will come into its own, but was wondering if others had similar experiences when it was extremely young.
I did have a temp spike at the 24 hour mark that had the temp of a thermowell at 86 when I got home from work. It hadn't completely taken off before I left in the morning and was hovering at 78. It spiked while out of the house for work so I bet it was a couple hours at that higher temp.
I know its too soon to fret but wanted to see what others were tasting immediately after primary.
Cutterman
Active Member
I ordered a pouch of Simplicity Syrup for priming bottles. Unfortunately it had crystallized. I think it must have frozen during shipping. I put pouch in hot water on stove to heat and feels like all crystallization is gone. My question is will this effect the flavor of the syrup?
Alright so looking for some more advice on this one. As mentioned earlier I had a pretty significant blow off which resulted in a loss of around 1/2 gallon of beer and a significant amount of yeast. The temperature profile did take it up to 80 degrees for a few days. The next mistake I made was racking to secondary without taking a hydrometer reading. Long story short, its been sitting in secondary at 50 degrees for almost a month now. Gravity measurement shows it's at 1.019. Looking to try and salvage this one so any recommendations on what to do next? Here are some options I'm considering...
1) Bring back up to around 70 degrees and pitch a packet of US-05. Let it go for a week then cold crash and bottle. (not sure the consequences from inducing another fermentation...oxidation or anything like that).
2) Just bottle it with priming sugar and hope the yeast don't eat the remaining complex sugars in the beer. (this seems way too dangerous and just asking for bottle bombs)
1) Bring back up to around 70 degrees and pitch a packet of US-05. Let it go for a week then cold crash and bottle. (not sure the consequences from inducing another fermentation...oxidation or anything like that).
2) Just bottle it with priming sugar and hope the yeast don't eat the remaining complex sugars in the beer. (this seems way too dangerous and just asking for bottle bombs)
cyanmonkey
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You could have mashed with a high pH and extracted tannins. Did you do the specialty grain version or the version with the syrup?
Also, it's only 5 days in. Yeast can cause astringency, as well.
Heres what mine looked like Sunday going into bottle. Drank what was left...that doesn't happen very often. This has real potential.
I use mash 5.2 stabilizer and have neutral well water and haven't detected tannins in other brews but it's possible.
I did the specialty grain version.
I took a sample after a week after dropping the temp and getting a gravity of 1.014...it tasted much better. Its definitely holding the taste I want-rich with stone fruit and touch of raisin. I attribute the "rise" in Gravity was because the first sample had yeast and protein since it was still churning.
I think I simply took a sample while it was really warm and was still chugging. I am feeling good knowing age is going to round all the edges and continue to blend the flavors. There was very little bitterness this tasting.
Going to let it ride at 60 for another week, then drop the temp another 10 degrees for a couple months.
Intend to bottle condition with sugar and harvested yeast. Will cellar till next winter, sampling twice a month.
This weekend is the syrup version!
Thanks!
orangehero
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First, 5.2 stabilizer does not actually work in lowering or controlling mash pH. Just put it in the trash and forget about it. Second, the pH of your water has little importance. The primary parameter you want to know about your water is the amount of alkalinity. You're probably going to want to pick up some lactic acid (or acidifier of your choice) if you want to get control over your mash pH. I strongly suspect that you had a higher than optimal mash pH.
Read this for a start:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460
Thanks for the pointer. Thats a whole new rabbit hole to go down...looks like I have some reading to do. And another toy to buy for the hobby!
pdx_brewer
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It's been almost 2 weeks since I brewed up this recipe and unfortunately I'm sitting quite a bit high still at 1.018. I ran a Forced Fermentation Test and I was able to get down to 1.011 so I'm thinking that I must have just not pitched enough yeast or had enough pure O2 in there or something. My OG was significantly higher than anticipated (1.105'ish) so maybe 1.018 is fine but I think I should be able to get drier.
My temperature control was right in line with the recipe, ending at 80F and now it has been sitting at about 75F for the last week'ish hoping the FG would drop further but it hasn't.
In either case, what's the best path forward? Step up some 3787 to higher and higher gravity and then pitch it? Start conditioning where it is now? Pitch some WLP099 and see how it goes? I'm open to all suggestions!
My temperature control was right in line with the recipe, ending at 80F and now it has been sitting at about 75F for the last week'ish hoping the FG would drop further but it hasn't.
In either case, what's the best path forward? Step up some 3787 to higher and higher gravity and then pitch it? Start conditioning where it is now? Pitch some WLP099 and see how it goes? I'm open to all suggestions!
That's always a difficult question, but at that OG the beer may be done, especially if the krausen has fallen and it is clear. Re-pitching may bring it down, I've personally had mixed results.
I kegged a batch around 1.018 once and my wife loved it. I found it too sweet but after some time it either grew on me or became better.
I bought some WLP099 once but never used it. It would be a good experiment to use it on a portion of the batch, but I have no idea how that would turn out.
Let us know how you make out. Good luck.
GregKelley
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pdx_brewer
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Thanks for the replies! I harvested some initially harvested some 3787 from starter so I'm going to use that and build it up a bit to see if it'll bring it down some more. Even just getting below 1.015 would be fine with me.
I'll post an update as soon as I've got some results!
jtp137
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I had to repitch this beer twice you need to make a large starter i would pitch the same amount of yeast as your first pitch and warm it up
orangehero
Well-Known Member
You can add it at any time, including in the fermenter whether at the start of fermentation or during high krausen. To preserve aromatic compounds it's recommended to add sugar adjuncts as late as possible. It's most common to add it at the end of the boil as that will both help preserve the aromatic compounds while also making it easy to completely dissolve the sugar syrup in the wort. You can run into problems of the syrup sinking to the bottom of the fermenter if added after the wort has been cooled.
OP
OP
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Most call for it to be added 10 min prior to flameout. We've added the D-180 both at flameout and T-10. No real difference.
Good day everyone,
I brew this recipe for the first time 3 days ago! Only got a OG of 1.081 due to poor efficiency.
It's now sitting in the temperature controlled fermentation chamber, and fermentation didn't kick in as strongly as I'm used to with the Wyeast 3787.
After 3 days, I only got a layer of 2 inches of Krausen, and it's the highest it got in that time.
For reference, I had a blowoff with the same yeast in a lighter Belgian Trippel after 24 hours, using a 8 gal fermenter. But that was at 69F.
Did I underpitch? I made a 3l starter on stir plate, and oxygenated the wort with pure O2 for 90 sec.
Is it normal given the somewhat low temperatures during the first days?
Thanks for your feedback.
I brew this recipe for the first time 3 days ago! Only got a OG of 1.081 due to poor efficiency.
It's now sitting in the temperature controlled fermentation chamber, and fermentation didn't kick in as strongly as I'm used to with the Wyeast 3787.
After 3 days, I only got a layer of 2 inches of Krausen, and it's the highest it got in that time.
For reference, I had a blowoff with the same yeast in a lighter Belgian Trippel after 24 hours, using a 8 gal fermenter. But that was at 69F.
Did I underpitch? I made a 3l starter on stir plate, and oxygenated the wort with pure O2 for 90 sec.
Is it normal given the somewhat low temperatures during the first days?
Thanks for your feedback.
