Long lag times for starters

A few weeks ago I made Belgian Dubbel and used used WLP530 which was 3 weeks over the date. Therefore I made a starter which took 4 days to start (OG 1:032 @ 76F) I can understand this as it was probably not in the best yeast anymore.

This weekend I made a Belgian Wit with WLP400 and the vial was dated 12/14/09. Made a starter with OG 1.034 and fermented at 70F but no activity after 48 hours, as brewday was coming up raised the temp to 76F and it took another 48 hours to get some activity, so tonight I pitched I was able to pitch it.

What is going on with my starters? I aerate them before pitching, during fermentaion I usually do it every 2 hours. Did I just get a few bad vials? Or is there something else going on.

What do you define as "no activity" for your starters? There is very little activity with making starters, rarely do they bubble, even more rarely is there a krausen that we see. The only true activity that most of us see is just a creamy band at the bottlom when it flocculates out.

But in truth, the time is takes for a starter to do it's thing is really the time it takes to reproduce, and it's going to take the time it needs to. Yeasts have their own agenda, their own timeframe, And it may be very different from our time frame.

I find it's easier to just give sufficient time for the yeast to do their thing, and let them. They really rarely let us down.

I don't believe it bad yeast, I believe in impatient brewers.

Bobby M recently did a test on year old stored yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes. I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.

The purpose of a starter is to reproduce any viable cells in a batch of yeast....that;s how we can grow a starter form the dregs in a bottle of beer incrementally...and that beer may be months old.

Even if you have a few still living cells, you can grow them....That's how we can harvest a huge starter (incrementally) from the dregs in a bottle of some commercial beers. You take those few living cells and grow them into more.

If yeast can be grown from a tiny amount that has been encased in amber for 45 million years, 45 million year old yeast ferments amber ale we really don't need to sweat too much about yeast viability....

If you care read my take on the Myth of Bad Yeast.

Are you letting the vial sit at room temperature for 6 hours or so before pitching into the starter? If not, it could be thermal shock that is causing the yeast to start slow. I've had a couple White Labs vials that were slow to start (~2 days), but more typically I see activity within 12 hours. I use a stir plate and always get a ring of CO2/krausen at the neck of the flask.

Of over the last dozen starters with tubes, smack packs or bottle harvesting, I have ever only seen one Krauzen or "activity ring." Either with or without my stirplate., but I've enver had a starter not "start."

The date on the tube is 4 months from when the tube was produced. The cell viability goes down over time. At the end of the 4 months there is almost no viable cells left in that tube. You need to take this in to account when making your starters. The starter calculator on mrmalty.com will allow you to enter in the dates and it figures out the approximate viability, etc... Try using the calculator on mrmalty.com next time.

Personally, I try to get the freshest vials and use them ASAP. I almost always get some foam krausen on my starters.

How big of a starter are you making? I wouldn't recommend anything less than 1 Liter at 1.040. If you have the means to control the temperature, keep the starter at 77F. That's the best temperature for yeast reproduction, especially with those Belgian strains that work better on the warm side. If you can buy or build a stir plate, that will also help immensely.

evilgnome:

Would you recomend the 77F for a starter if you knew you'd be pitching in a 60-64F wort? Is there any worry about the colder wort shocking the yeast?

Revvy said:

There is very little activity with making starters, rarely do they bubble, even more rarely is there a krausen that we see. The only true activity that most of us see is just a creamy band at the bottlom when it flocculates out.

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There was a creamy band in the bottom but that was there already after 2 hours so I assumed this was just the yeast settling and waiting until it would start reproducing.

Do I need todo a gravity reading next time to see how the activity is going?

maida7 said:

evilgnome:

Would you recomend the 77F for a starter if you knew you'd be pitching in a 60-64F wort? Is there any worry about the colder wort shocking the yeast?

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77F is the ideal temperature for yeast propagation. You can always chill it down slowly to pitching temperature before you pitch if you don't want to shock the yeast. Here's the paper I got the 77F from:

Yeast Propagation and Maintenance

Temperature. Another important factor which influences yeast growth and
metabolism is temperature. Temperature is somewhat neglected in terms of its
role in influencing growth rate and fermentation performance. Most brewing
yeasts will actually grow and ferment at temperatures up to 98 °F (37 °C). These
high temperatures are not optimal for yeast propagation or fermentation, since
they produce numerous esters and affect the overall viability and stability of the
yeast. 86 °F (30 °C) is the usual temperature for the growth and propagation of
laboratory yeast but this is still too high for brewing yeast. Room temperature or
77°F (25 °F) is the recommended temperature for propagating brewing yeasts.
At this temperature rapid growth and fermentation occurs without any adverse
affects on subsequent fermentation performance. Although ale yeast will grow
just fine up to near 90 °F, lager yeasts start to lose viability at high temperatures.
The mid 70s are optimal for growing lager yeasts and higher temperatures
should be avoided.

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room temp is 77F! That's one wicked hot house. My wife like's it cold. In summer our house is 72. In winter it's 68.

But I get the point warmer is better for growing yeast starters.

maida7 said:

room temp is 77F! That's one wicked hot house. My wife like's it cold. In summer our house is 72. In winter it's 68.

But I get the point warmer is better for growing yeast starters.

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Here in Arizona, my room temp is 78F most of the year. Any cooler is EXPENSIVE.