Blueberry Braggot

I just put this into the primary.
OG is 1.088 - I'm hoping for a FG of 1.022

I'm thinking this one may take some time before I can bottle.

3 gals clean water in brewpot.

Add grainbag and begin heating.
1lb Crystal 40L
4oz Biscuit Malt
4oz Honey Malt
Remove grainbag at 160 F

Boil:
1lb Lght DME
2oz Goldings (60 min)
Whirfloc tab (15 min)
At 10 minutes, add 64oz unsweetened blueberry juice.
At flame out, add 8lbs 4oz Clover Honey and completely stir in.

Cool wort

Add water to 5 gal and mix.

Pitch Pasteur Champagne dry yeast along with yeast energizer and yeast nutrient.

This is my first braggot. (my first use of honey in brewing, actually)

The guy at my local brewsupply recommended the Pasteur yeast. Does that sound right? I ran across another recipe that used a champagne yeast in addition to a standard ale yeast. Should I pitch some Nottingham dry on top of this?

Anyone with any suggestions regarding the yeast?

I can't speak about the yeast, but you are going to end up with a FG closer to 1.005.

How so? Does honey ferment that much better than malt?

Even with the champagne yeast, I figure this will finish out at less than 9% ABV.

Once again to anybody reading, would it be a good idea to pitch some ale yeast in as well? Thanks.

Yes, Honey is much more fermentable than malt. Also, the sugar in the blueberry juice will probably ferment out completely. Since you already have it going, don't bother adding the ale yeast. As I understand (I'm no expert, by the way), Champagne yeast is quite aggressive and will more or less destroy the ale yeast (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Let it go for a month or so, then take a hydrometer reading and taste. You can backsweeten if you want.

Yeah, it seems to be gong solid right now...I'll leave the other yeast out. The blueberry juice is not particularly sweet though I'm certain there's some sugar in there.

Thanks for the help BTW...just wanted to make certain I'm on the right track. I don't have any brewing friends to ask and honey braggot/mead is unknown territory for me.

I've been brewing for three years but am still a bit of a newbie in many ways as I've only used kits and pretested recipes so far. Also, I've only just discovered all these online brewing resources recently.
Now, for whatever reason, I've gone whole-hog into DIY - we all learn by doing, eh?
...plus, getting all these brews underway has given me a much-needed break from the recording studio, the other "love of my life".

i would cold crash this when it gets to the gravity you want. Your going to ferment waaaay down below 1.022!

So I understand.
LOL! Sorry for being such a newbie.
I'm guessing this yeast probably can't touch 10% ABV without some help??? It's Red Star Pasteur Champagne. I don't know squat about wine yeasts...

If I had used 3lbs DME instead and cut back on the honey, and used an ale yeast would that have been better? This was actually my original intent...but then I decided to use all the honey I had on hand and changed everything else appropriately...or so I thought. Oops.

I'll be keeping a close watch on the hydrometer. Thanks for the suggestion of cold crashing. How do I avoid bottle bombs with this but still get some carbonation?

Maybe I should just ferment this until still and put it in wine bottles? LOL! My wife actually has a bunch of little port bottles that would work great.

Oh well, interesting experiment anyway.

You guys rock! :rockin:

Next time would 4lbs DME with 4.5lbs honey and Windsor dry ale yeast be a better choice?
Not really sure how to formulate this recipe vs. beer recipes...does honey act just like sucrose? I thought it was harder to ferment.

I think I may just cork this one in wine bottles when it's still (as I mentioned above) and just wait quite some time to drink.

I just don't think I have the experience or wherewithal to cold crash this at a particular gravity (no spare fridge + an incomplete understanding of the process). In many ways, I'm still a bit "green" as a brewmeister.
Would I just cool it for a couple days to something like 50 degrees F and rack it to a new fermenter, leaving much of the yeast behind? Is that all there is to it? Would there be enough yeast left to carbonate in the bottles? Would I still need to prime?

Any constructive suggestions on this brew would be most welcome.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

Maybe I should take my questions to the Mead sub-forum?

carbon111 said:

Next time would 4lbs DME with 4.5lbs honey and Windsor dry ale yeast be a better choice?
Not really sure how to formulate this recipe vs. beer recipes...does honey act just like sucrose? I thought it was harder to ferment.

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the yeast in this case is more important than how much sugar you have. Any champagne yeast is going to attenuate (use of sugars) more than beer yeast. If you look online, lets say nottingham or safale 05 (this is what i would have used) attenuates to around 75%. That means that if you had a starting gravity of 1.088 it will eat all the sugar down to around 1.020 leaving some sweetness. champagne yeast will eat much more sugar giving you maybe closer to 90% attenuation for closer to 11% alcohol if not more. Sugar or honey ferments out almost completly. When fermenting PURE honey in a mead or such, it is hard to ferment because there are no nutrients in the honey to allow the yeast to thrive and meads or usually very high gravity.

carbon111 said:

I think I may just cork this one in wine bottles when it's still (as I mentioned above) and just wait quite some time to drink.

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If you do this make sure you let this sit for a while. Anything this high in starting gravity will need many months to mellow. Personally i would rack this into a clean carboy when its done and set in the back ofmy closet for 6+ months minimum. I had a belgian dubbel which had a starting grvaity of only ~1.073 and it sat for 7 mos to mellow out.

carbon111 said:

I just don't think I have the experience or wherewithal to cold crash this at a particular gravity (no spare fridge + an incomplete understanding of the process). In many ways, I'm still a bit "green" as a brewmeister.
Would I just cool it for a couple days to something like 50 degrees F and rack it to a new fermenter, leaving much of the yeast behind? Is that all there is to it? Would there be enough yeast left to carbonate in the bottles? Would I still need to prime?

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You can always add yeast later to prime if you want to carbonate it but there should be enough left in solution and yes- to carbonate in bottle you always need to prime. SOme breweries transfer before fermentation is complete so that it finishes fermenting in bottle but this can be dangerous for us homebrewers since we sometimes get variations on final gravities. Cold crashing really needs to be close to freezing to cause the yeast to drop out of solution. The only other thing you could try before it gets to low is stopping fermentation early with a mixture of metabisulfite and potasium sorbate. Check these out for some ideas.
Winemaking: Finishing Your Wine
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/stabilizing-without-potassium-sorbate-119553/

Exactly the information I needed! Thank you very much!

I think I will follow your recommendation of racking into a carboy when fermentation is done and condition for a few months before corking in small wine bottles. If it's ultra-dry when served, so be it.

Before then, I'll probably re-rack a few times to see how clear I can get this.

If it is really dry, carbonation would be nice though...My big question is after 6 months of conditioning in a carboy, would there be enough dormant yeast left to ensure bottle carbonation? In this case I'd star cap it in beer bottles.

For a brew like this it's 1oz priming sugar per gallon?

From now on, I'll be more careful following off-the-cuff advice on which yeast to use from my local HBS guy, especially when it's regarding something neither of us are familliar with like a braggot.

carbon111 said:

I think I will follow your recommendation of racking into a carboy when fermentation is done and condition for a few months before corking in small wine bottles. If it's ultra-dry when served, so be it.

Before then, I'll probably re-rack a few times to see how clear I can get this.

If it is really dry, carbonation would be nice though...My big question is after 6 months of conditioning in a carboy, would there be enough dormant yeast left to ensure bottle carbonation? In this case I'd star cap it in beer bottles.

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you can always use pot. sorbate later and then backsweeten. Pasture will ferment dry so just be ready...Dont use 1 oz/gal!!!! Usually its about 4-4.5 oz per 5 gallon batch!
TastyBrew.com | Homebrewing Calculators | Kegging Carbonation Calculator
chose the mead_braggot category and pick how carbed you want it. the windows is 1.0-3.5 volumesa of co2/L but to give you an idea most beers fall around 2.0 volumes/liter. If your worried about not having enough yeast to carb, ou can always pitch 1/4 packet in with the priming sugar when you bottle... Wait at least 6 mos if not longer before bottling this though and you will be rewarded! For this i would rack off the lees every 2 months until the lees(stuff dropping to the bottom) becomes less than 1/4 inch. Then i usually wait around 3-4 before i rack over. This is going to take alot of time and rackings before the alcohol heat fades and it ages properly. My very close friend with whom i do meads lets them sit for over a year to age properly and they are some of the best i have ever tried. Good luck

Once again, excellent info! :rockin:

I'd prefer to avoid potassium sorbate and will probably just let this finish where it will. I'm wondering though, could I sweeten it a tad with lactose before bottling?

Though I am an impatient guy, I'll give this one some time...at least six months. (In the meantime I'll reward my patience with a few more beer brewing sessions.)

scinerd3000 said:

the yeast in this case is more important than how much sugar you have. Any champagne yeast is going to attenuate (use of sugars) more than beer yeast. If you look online, lets say nottingham or safale 05 (this is what i would have used) attenuates to around 75%. That means that if you had a starting gravity of 1.088 it will eat all the sugar down to around 1.020 leaving some sweetness. champagne yeast will eat much more sugar giving you maybe closer to 90% attenuation for closer to 11% alcohol if not more. Sugar or honey ferments out almost completly. When fermenting PURE honey in a mead or such, it is hard to ferment because there are no nutrients in the honey to allow the yeast to thrive and meads or usually very high gravity.

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I thought the attenuation % for those dry ale yeast was based on it's ability to eat through the maltose and whatnot in beer, not the simple sugars in honey. So, i thought that it would dry out no matter what yeast you would do. or at least get very close.

carbon111 said:

Once again, excellent info! :rockin:

I'd prefer to avoid potassium sorbate and will probably just let this finish where it will. I'm wondering though, could I sweeten it a tad with lactose before bottling?

Though I am an impatient guy, I'll give this one some time...at least six months. (In the meantime I'll reward my patience with a few more beer brewing sessions.)

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That would work. However, might I suggest making a simple syrup to be served to taste with the mead. That way, individuals can determine how sweet or dry they want to mead.

This is the most persistant ferment I've ever seen. Very little krausen though.

mkorpal said:

I thought the attenuation % for those dry ale yeast was based on it's ability to eat through the maltose and whatnot in beer, not the simple sugars in honey. So, i thought that it would dry out no matter what yeast you would do. or at least get very close.

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from my experience your right. Some drop lower than others. Nottingham drops to about 1.000. Champain yeast drops below that leaving very little residual sweetness.

carbon111 said:

I'm wondering though, could I sweeten it a tad with lactose before bottling?

Though I am an impatient guy, I'll give this one some time...at least six months. (In the meantime I'll reward my patience with a few more beer brewing sessions.)

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yea lactose or splenda works. Personally i hate splenda so i have used lactose. Taste then add then repeate. If you add too much you cant take it back. If you are prepared to wait long enough, it will seem to sweeten on its own. Edworts apfelwein after a year and a half is devine.

Don't worry, there no chance of me putting splenda in any of my brews...yuck!

I'm thinking I may have to put this one up for a long time regardless so may, as you say, let time do my "sweetening" for me.

Thanks again for your insight! BTW, just noticed your sig - what can you tell me about Tangerine Wine!? 0_o

carbon111 said:

Thanks again for your insight! BTW, just noticed your sig - what can you tell me about Tangerine Wine!? 0_o

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I used jack kellers recipe for orange wine and modified it:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/30-lbs-tangerines-what-make-95792/