Is cleaning always necessary?

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RunnerDude said:
Interesting. Thanks. What do you consider the difference between 1st recycling and thereafter? I.E. why do you clean the first time but not thereafter? My initial thought would be that, with the exception of the outside of the bottle, it would be the same situation after drinking a commercially made brew as a homebrew. But maybe I'm missing something.
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I do the same thing as Uniondr. Reason is that when you're first recycling a bottle, you may not know how long it was sitting around, or if any gunk dried up in the bottle. Also, there's the label to remove, so you might as well soak the inside as well. You have more control over the future uses of the bottles, so an immediate thorough rinse should work. By the way, all of my brewing equipment gets cleaned after use, and before the subsequent use. I use Easy Clean, although I'm sure Oxyclean works just as well. After cleaning, I sanitize with StarSan.:mug:
 
Thanks everyone. Given the arguments here and the general consensus I will be cleaning and sanitizing everything from here on out.

My take away is this: there might be some physical matter left behind that you don't see which might harbor enough bacteria that the sanitizer won't kill it.

Once this tub of PBW is done I'll have to look into Oxiclean free. I hear it's much cheaper. Thanks again.
 
Try Sun Oxygen cleaner. Its even cheaper and cleans just as well as OxyClean Free. My wife is a coupon nut, and hit a really good deal on OxyClean Free, but normally I just buy a huge tub of Sun at wal-mart or Big Lots and its double the size of Oxy at half the price.
 
the_mox said:
My rule is if it looks clean, its clean, but if there is even a shadow of doubt, I clean it.
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Yep. I don't scrub everything with pbw every time, but EVERYTHING that touches my beer from flameout until it is poured is thoroughly sanitized.
 
My advice is to clean things that need cleaned (fermenters, kettles, MLT's, starter vessels, blow off tubes) and rinse things that need rinsed (siphon tubing, racking canes, spoons, thermometers, pitchers (or whatever you vorlauf with), hydrometer).

After a while you will get the hang of what needs cleaned and what can just be rinsed. And for the things that just get rinsed (like siphon tubing and racking canes) a good soak with star san before you use it and you're fine. Star san, unlike some of the other sanitizers, will effectively kill microbes even in the presence of organics.

For the things that you do clean, you don't have to use expensive cleaners like PBW for everything. For instance, I use Ivory bar soap to clean my plastic bucket fermenters and my kettles/MLT. I save the PBW for hard stuff like starter vessels, blow tubes and things that are generally hard to get at and clean by hand.
 
BBL_Brewer said:
Interesting. What cleaning products should I avoid? Obviously dish soap is the easiest. We use "natural" dish soap, whatever that means (usually citrus based). I would imagine the possible problem is that it doesn't rinse off completely?
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RunnerDude said:
Interesting. What cleaning products should I avoid? Obviously dish soap is the easiest. We use "natural" dish soap, whatever that means (usually citrus based). I would imagine the possible problem is that it doesn't rinse off completely?
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Dish soap for sure, it is hard to rinse off completely and could affect your head retention. Any mild soap should be ok for general duty cleaning. Scent free would be preferable but it's hard to find. I hear oxyclean is a cheaper alternative to PBW, but I'm so scimpy with the first jug of PBW I bought I haven't ran out yet. Ivory soap, PBW and tap water are the only things I use to clean with. Also, when you do have to make up some of the expensive stuff like PBW, take full advantage of it. Make up just enough to clean everything that needs cleaned with it. For instance I'll make up just a little over a gallon of it (about half the recommended dosage) and soak my blow off tubes and anything else I have laying around that will fit in the bucket and soak those first. Then I'll fill up a starter vessel and let it sit over night. If I have more starter vessels, I'll just keep running it down the line until I have everything clean.
 
BBL_Brewer said:
Make up just enough to clean everything that needs cleaned with it. For instance I'll make up just a little over a gallon of it (about half the recommended dosage) and soak my blow off tubes and anything else I have laying around that will fit in the bucket and soak those first. Then I'll fill up a starter vessel and let it sit over night. If I have more starter vessels, I'll just keep running it down the line until I have everything clean.
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Cool. I take it you don't use PBW on your carboys? Or you don't use carboys?
 
I use PBW & starsan for everything,since they're designed for brewing equipment. I'd rather spend the $8 a pound for the PBW then use something that may be questionable somehow or other. Much less hand soap,I'm not sure about that one.
 
atom said:
i agree.

my method is just to keep a few gallons of oxy clean solution in any buckets not in use. when the time comes to use them, i empty, rinse and sanitize.
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Wouldn't that leave a film in your carboys and buckets if you were to do that?
 
One thing I'm not quite understanding here. Maybe because I study microbiology everyday, and fret over little organisms that can infect anything, not just beer.

If you have an "odor" coming from your fermenter that means something is growing in there. Odors don't just show up for funsies, but are decaying organic matter, or growing and reproducing bacteria.

If any of my equipment had an "odor" I'd try and figure out where and what that was immediately if not toss the equipment.

As for cleaning, yes clean everything. I go to the kitchen in the middle of the night and grab a glass of water. I drink from said glass and inspect it. Huh, no viable "dirt" so it must be clean. It gets placed back in the cupboard. In the morning I'm receiving a horrible tongue lashing from the wife for being a disgusting inconsiderate person. The same goes for brewing gear. Everything I used on brew day gets tossed in a warm tub of PBW to soak. It gets rinsed with star San and put upside down to dry. (try storing tubing lying on its side while it's still wet and see what grows in a week or so.) the day before brew day I can't guarantee dust or any other organic material has not made its way onto my equipment since last it was used so this process gets repeated.

Keep in mind this is coming from the guy that dusts base boards, ceiling fans, window sills, and hardwood floors with straight pine sol twice a week. I do not tolerate messes, things out of place, or dirt in my home or brewery. It took the wife a couple years to get used to putting coffee cups in numerical order based on the number placed on the bottom, putting the toothpaste in the drawn circle in the medicine cabinet after wiping off the excess with a sterile cloth of course, and putting books back in the study on the shelves first in alphabetical order then largest to smallest basted on genre. The same goes for our brewing practices. In case you were wondering, yes I am legitimately OCD.
 
OCD? Gee,ya think? ;) But that's what I've been saying,albeit more susinctly on your part. If it smells funky,it isn't clean. I've found if you clean the fermenter,& it still smells a little,take out the spigot,& clean it & all parts thereof. & clean the mounting hole area as well. Everytime.
I clean & sanitize everything for every brew.
 
Yup,that'll dang sure do it. You had to be to make it back home. I freaked when Jose Wales said something to the people with him in that ranch house. My father said the same thing,nearly word for word to me a couple decades before. He was a seabee in the Phillipines building & defending the runways to drop the big ones on Japan. Thanks for doing your part & being able to talk beer stuff now.
 
medusa1066 said:
Hi. My name is John Doe. I work at McDonalds. I just used the restroom, and boy was it a mess when I was done. I rinsed my hands under hot water because I don't like the smell of soap. Here is your order, I made it myself. I hope you enjoy the subtle overtones and flavors of Salmonella, E. coli, Staphylococcus, and Clostridia that were under my nails and hiding in the wrinkles of my hands. Not to mention the proteins in my feces that the hot water couldn't quite get off of my hands. :cross:
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Not a good analogy. Based on the original post, you would have sanitized your hands before leaving the bathroom. :ban:

Back on topic...some seem to be missing what was asked. He is skipping the cleaning since the bottles are rinsed and then sanitizing them. So...is the cleaning necessary if the bottles seem clean?
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
to answer your question, YES, cleaning and sanitizing is a NECESSARY part of brewing. no way out of it, unless you want infected or bad tasting beer, you MUST CLEAN AND SANITIZE ANY EQUIPMENT THAT ISN'T BEING BOILED.
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I don't 100% agree. If the component was originally clean, it doesn't really ALWAYS need to be cleaned again as long as it has been sanitized.

It's good practice to both clean and sanitize, but not always necessary.
 
cooper said:
Awesome! I would say this perfectly illustrates the need for being OCD when it comes to keeping things clean in the brewery. Personally, I've worked way too hard on my brew and waited way too long to drink it to skip any steps when it comes to making sure my equipment is clean as well as sanitary.
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Your fermentors have fecal matter in them? Did you crap in them?
 
venquessa said:
We did an experiment at Uni to demonstrate just how "lively" the air in the average home is.

1. Take a clear Chinese takeaway carton or lunch box and completely sanitize it as best you can. Make sure it can seal airtight.
2. Pour enough tomato soup into the carton to cover the bottom fully.
3. Immediately seal the tub, then secondarily seal it by warping in cling film.
4. Leave at room temperature in light, but not direct sun light for 2 weeks.
5. Open it and count your bacteria and fungus colonies. Work out the volume of air you sealed into the tub and therefore the number of nasties per cubic meter of air.

When I did it, I got a result that was scary. It was something like 400 fungi spurs per cubic meter!

Edit: Tomato soup is usually sterilized before canning. Hence it's use in this experiment.
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Now do this same experiment but add brewers yeast and see what happens. Done.
 
The only thing I don't clean everytime (after initial recycling) is the glass bottles. They have a little beer left in the bottom to keep the dregs moist. So when I rinse them out some 3 times each,they're good to go on the bottle tree to dry before storage. So it's easy to see at that point that they're clean.
And I'll tell you what,that vinator with starsan on bottling day even gets off some hop grain stuff & other lil grains as well with the five pumps I give each bottle. I've been kicking around the idea of re-soaking the bottles in a bucket of PBW every few brews just to be sure they're clean & odor free.
 
squirrelly said:
One thing I'm not quite understanding here. Maybe because I study microbiology everyday, and fret over little organisms that can infect anything, not just beer.

If you have an "odor" coming from your fermenter that means something is growing in there. Odors don't just show up for funsies, but are decaying organic matter, or growing and reproducing bacteria.

If any of my equipment had an "odor" I'd try and figure out where and what that was immediately if not toss the equipment.
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Really? All of my buckets have a strong hop odor. Does this mean I have hops growing in there? Maybe I should toss them. </sarcasm>

If you mix and use sanitizers properly, it will kill virtually everything short of chunky growths.

Also, keep in mind that our ancestors made drinkable beer for 10,000 years with no starsan or iodophor.

Sometimes I think microbiology classes create a bunch of paranoid OCD people.
 
If I can get at it with a scrubby sponge, like buckets and pots, I give it a good scrub with soap. If I can't get at it with a scrubby sponge, like kegs, I soak it in Oxyclean. I always clean right after use so nothing has a chance to get crusty. I always soak anything on the cold side in star san. I have never had an issue yet. I keep in mind that anything that can flake off the underside cannot be sanitized.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
We are working on a microbial level here.

"Looks" clean can be a starfield of no-see-ums.
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this is an amazing point, if you're using your eyes to tell you something's clean you either have super powers or a super dirty something. i'm surprised to see this thread still going, i was under the impression that cleaning and sanitizing is an essential part of the process and brewers strived for a clean and sanitized brew space, equipment, and bottles or kegs. i personally wouldn't begin any brew related activity without cleaning and sanitizing myself (well, i clean myself but i only sanitize my hands and arms), the space I'm working in, and anything coming close to my beer, wort, yeast or ingredients. it's surprising to see some people downplay or ignore the importance of this part of the process.
 
Also keep in mind that even the tiniest bits of funk can harbor nasties. If you can smell it,they're their. I soak,scrub,rinse a few times every part of the fermenter. Then sanitize. Especially all the spigot parts & mounting holes. I even use a soft tooth brush on the lid seal area. I use aquarium lift tube brushes on the spigots,& other small ID stuff as well.
 
sudsmcgee said:
Really? All of my buckets have a strong hop odor. Does this mean I have hops growing in there? Maybe I should toss them. </sarcasm>

As I stated before, if I had any "aroma" hanging out in my fermenter, yes I'd toss it. How do I know what I smell isn't leeching into my beer? This is exactly why I tossed all plastic a long time ago, and ferment solely in stainless conicals which I know I can clean and sanitize properly.

If you mix and use sanitizers properly, it will kill virtually everything short of chunky growths.

"You can't sanitize a turd." that was direct quote from the creator of five star products. In short if it's not clean to begin with, it will never be sterile.

Also, keep in mind that our ancestors made drinkable beer for 10,000 years with no starsan or iodophor.

I doubt our ancestors were making beer that would bring gold medals back to the cave, nor were they sitting around on the mastodon throw nit-picking each and every off flavor found in the beer which is what a BJCP judge or cicerone will do.

Sometimes I think microbiology classes create a bunch of paranoid OCD people.

I've already gone into my personal OCD issues, but microbio classes have taught us a great deal about the living organisms around us, and how they behave. I don't see that as a bad thing. I suppose the UC Davis brewer's institute just teaches people about meaningless brewing procedures as well?
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sudsmcgee said:
Now do this same experiment but add brewers yeast and see what happens. Done.
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Excellent point, and I think one that makes the biggest difference. Brewers yeast completely changes the chemistry involved. Wort would be a bacteria heaven, but the addition of an active yeast into properly aerated wort will generate conditions unfavorable for bacteria growth (ie increased alcohol %). Bottom line is clean and sanitize thoroughly, and give your yeast the best possible chance for success.
 
RunnerDude said:
Thanks everyone. Seems that the consensus is that the immediate rinse, shake/rub to visible cleanliness and dry is an acceptable, if not ideal, way to go. I'll probably stick with that for now.

Should the faint odor in my glass carboy concern me? Is that a reason to soak it in PBW? Or is it normal for some faint odor to remain?
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No offense, but you sound really lazy. I am lazy too, but I clean my brewing equipment religiously. It's really not that hard to fill your bucket with water/oxy clean and soak everything in there. It's really easy.
 
[quote="squirrelly";3637012]
Really? All of my buckets have a strong hop odor. Does this mean I have hops growing in there? Maybe I should toss them. </sarcasm>

As I stated before, if I had any "aroma" hanging out in my fermenter, yes I'd toss it. How do I know what I smell isn't leeching into my beer? This is exactly why I tossed all plastic a long time ago, and ferment solely in stainless conicals which I know I can clean and sanitize properly.

If you mix and use sanitizers properly, it will kill virtually everything short of chunky growths.

"You can't sanitize a turd." that was direct quote from the creator of five star products. In short if it's not clean to begin with, it will never be sterile.

Also, keep in mind that our ancestors made drinkable beer for 10,000 years with no starsan or iodophor.

I doubt our ancestors were making beer that would bring gold medals back to the cave, nor were they sitting around on the mastodon throw nit-picking each and every off flavor found in the beer which is what a BJCP judge or cicerone will do.

Sometimes I think microbiology classes create a bunch of paranoid OCD people.

I've already gone into my personal OCD issues, but microbio classes have taught us a great deal about the living organisms around us, and how they behave. I don't see that as a bad thing. I suppose the UC Davis brewer's institute just teaches people about meaningless brewing procedures as well?[/quote]

Hey, did you happen to produce a series of youtube videos about brewing?
 
No; I have a couple of videos on my Facebook page about brewing on the 1100, but that's it. Most of what I've seen on YouTube about brewing has not really impressed me save for BTV.
 
Just rinsing doesn't remove the film left behind from a previous brew. Fermentor, botlles, everything needs to be cleaned AND sanitized before next use.
 
The film from a brew isn't the same as cleaners & the like. Some of those have enzymes or have a different surface tension so they can do their job. If you rinse the bottle while it's freshly emptied,it comes out with no smell. The starsan rinse right befor bottling with the vinator blasts some small particles loose I may've not seen. But that's been rare,just when I didn't strain or use hop sacks. So it's not really an issue,unless you're OCD.
 
I think there's a difference between "clean" and "OCD clean." I may be jinxing myself here, but I've brewed for 4 years with much of the same equipment and never once had an infection. Typically, when I'm done with a piece of brewing equipment, it gets a thorough rinse and I scrape down the chunks until I've got a visibly clean surface. I use StarSan just prior to anything touching fresh, cooled wort and I've been doing just fine.

Detergents are designed to bind to fats, oils, and proteins (which a finished beer has very little of) and make them more soluble in water. Seeing as beer is mostly water with a little bit of sugars and alcohol, using detergents doesn't buy you much. So far as I'm concerned, if it looks clean, it's clean enough for the sanitizer to do its job and that's all that really matters.
 
For fermenters,tools,& such PBW & starsan. Then I know it's clean. No dish soap,oxyclean or the like. I like to use what is intended to be used on brew equipment. It doesn't cost that much to get the right tools for the job. Bottles are def easier & quicker to clean.
 
themack22 said:
No offense, but you sound really lazy. I am lazy too, but I clean my brewing equipment religiously. It's really not that hard to fill your bucket with water/oxy clean and soak everything in there. It's really easy.
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i feel the same way, i hate cleaning, but when it comes to brewing equipment, i tend to uber clean. i'm the same way with my aquariums. i don't know if i'd say it's laziness talking in some of these posts. i mean, some of these guys are going through the motions; filling beckets/carboys with water, shaking, wiping, etc., just not using cleaners. others do seem to just skip the cleaning altogether. it's really surprising to see just how many brewers skip or shortcut a step i've always felt was crucial.

Northjerzyg said:
Just rinsing doesn't remove the film left behind from a previous brew. Fermentor, botlles, everything needs to be cleaned AND sanitized before next use.
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i think it's as simple as ^this^. you can make all the excuses and justifications you want, bottom line is you greatly increase the risk of infection by not cleaning and sanitizing everything that touches your wort after the boil.
 
A couple of points; Over the course of the past 18+ months, I'd started to notice a deposit on the inside of my bottles. It seemed to be a white/grey powder. I use PET bottles, both dark brown and clear soda bottles. I usually rinse (Not clean. Fill halfway with water, vigorously shake, drain and repeat one or two times more.) them out immediately after emptying, setting them upside down to dry. I rinse with Starsan just prior to bottling. I've found that a hot water (tap water hot, not boiling) soaking in Oxyclean gets rid of most, if not all of the deposits. It also seems that oxyclean is less effective at 68 - 70°F than it is when hot. I'm not exactly sure what the deposits are, but I'll continue to do research on how to remove them short of setting them in a pyre.
gr8shandini, your first sentence made me think of an advertising slogan, "Not just clean, OCD clean!!"
 
Nordeast, I think you've gotten to the crux of the discussion here. I don't think anyone would say that you don't need to clean, it's really just the method we're discussing. To me, introducing harsh cleansers also introduces the chance that they won't be completely disposed of before the brew hits the 'San, so to speak. I've had good results using just fresh water, but if you're diligent about removing every trace of cleanser, it couldn't possibly hurt.

But I don't have 100% trust in my OCD tendencies, so, for me, it breaks down like this; which would you rather have in your beer, trace elements from a previous brew, or trace elements of a caustic cleanser? I vote beer, but you guys may feel differently.
 
themack22 said:
No offense, but you sound really lazy. I am lazy too, but I clean my brewing equipment religiously. It's really not that hard to fill your bucket with water/oxy clean and soak everything in there. It's really easy.
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Well it depends upon how you define lazy. I'm happy to clean if it's necessary (as you can see from the subject of the post). But I think saving time and money is smart, not lazy. I posted this with the intent of finding some reason to clean or not. And I got that. Given the reasons posted on here (as I stated in a previous post) I've decided to start cleaning most things. My carboy just got done with a day long soak in pbw and now the bucket is getting one along with all the little stuff. Thanks to everyone for all the feedback.
 
To throw a different twist on cleaning and sanitizing, there was an interview with Charlie Talley, inventer of Star-San, on a Basic Brewing broadcast in 2007. He stated that cleaning theoretically eliminates the need for sanitizing - sanitizing is insurance. This thread is looking at the opposite - does sanitizing eliminate the need for [PBW, etc.]. I like the insurance approach, but for re-using my own bottles I skip the PBW wash because I don't have a way to soak 48 bottles in a reasonable time frame.
 
So after a 24ish hour soak in PBW all odor is gone from my carboy. But after a 48 hour soak in PBW a light scrubbing and a good rinse my plastic fermentor bucket still has a distinct odor. I've heard it said that the buckets never lose their odor, but I don't know if that's true. As one poster pointed out, if it smells, there's something still in it. But perhaps small amount of residue in permeable plastic are not going to cause problems.

Do others find they can get their plastic buckets odor free and if so, how?
 
RunnerDude said:
So after a 24ish hour soak in PBW all odor is gone from my carboy. But after a 48 hour soak in PBW a light scrubbing and a good rinse my plastic fermentor bucket still has a distinct odor. I've heard it said that the buckets never lose their odor, but I don't know if that's true. As one poster pointed out, if it smells, there's something still in it. But perhaps small amount of residue in permeable plastic are not going to cause problems.

Do others find they can get their plastic buckets odor free and if so, how?
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The buckets are fine. If the odor won't come out during a a prolonged PBW soak, it won't come out into your beer either. I only use plastic buckets and all of my buckets have a notable odor, yet my beer is consistently great. Brew on good sir! :mug:
 

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