Yeast starter timeline

I know this has been covered before in the past, but looking for some suggestions as to how to approach my starter.

I'm really hoping to brew this Saturday. I ordered a stir plate late last week, expecting it to arrive early-to-middle of this week, but there's been a delay in the shipping and it probably won't get to my place until some time Thursday.

According to the Mr. Malty calculator, I need just over a 2L starter for my 1.080 beer I'm planning on brewing. Assuming I get the stir plate Thursday, can I prepare my 2L starter that evening, let it run on the plate for 12-18 hrs (at this point mid-to-late afternoon Friday, then let it settle overnight in the fridge and pitch late Saturday afternoon when I finish up the brewday activities?

Or should I plan on making a simple starter here in the next day or so, then step it up once I get the plate? I don't want to go too big on the starter for stability's sake.

Might depend on the yeast, but I think you would be fine making a starter Thursday evening, let it run 18-24 hours, cold crash 24 hrs and then pitch the yeast (this would put you at Saturday evening). If you would feel more comfortable with some extra time to cold crash it, you can brew Saturday and let the wort sit overnight in your chamber and pitch the next morning. While this practice is not advised, I have done it several times to get beers down to the proper pitching temp with no infections. Just be sure you sanitize your fermentation vessel well. I think pitching the right amount of yeast at the right temp is more important than an immediate pitch after finished brewing. Just my opinion.

3toes said:

I know this has been covered before in the past, but looking for some suggestions as to how to approach my starter.

I'm really hoping to brew this Saturday. I ordered a stir plate late last week, expecting it to arrive early-to-middle of this week, but there's been a delay in the shipping and it probably won't get to my place until some time Thursday.

According to the Mr. Malty calculator, I need just over a 2L starter for my 1.080 beer I'm planning on brewing. Assuming I get the stir plate Thursday, can I prepare my 2L starter that evening, let it run on the plate for 12-18 hrs (at this point mid-to-late afternoon Friday, then let it settle overnight in the fridge and pitch late Saturday afternoon when I finish up the brewday activities?

Or should I plan on making a simple starter here in the next day or so, then step it up once I get the plate? I don't want to go too big on the starter for stability's sake.

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With a 1.08 beer you're going to want a pretty big starter (unless its not a 5 gallon batch). I would make a simple starter then step it up, but your 12-18 hour timeline isn't bad. Just make sure you decant after 24 hours in the fridge and let your yeast cake warm to room temp before pitching.

I usually like to add about 500mL of fresh wort once its room temp and let it spin for 3-4 hours to just make sure all the wee beasties are lively and awake. Brulosopher refers to it as a vitality starter.

If you want a really in-depth explanation of how I make my starters I lay it all out on my blog.

https://theaskomatic.wordpress.com/2015/07/27/yeast-knowledge-feast/

I hope that's helpful!

Thanks for the suggestions and information!

Letting it sit until late Saturday evening or even into Sunday morning isn't beyond the realm of possibility. I just won't have time to actually brew on Sunday.

One thing I neglected to mention is that I have some folks coming over late Saturday afternoon for a shrimp boil So setting it aside to pitch later is definitely doable since I'll have hosting/cooking duties late that afternoon.

I do have a temp controlled fermentation chamber (i.e. converted chest freezer). And considering my tap-water here AT BEST comes out at 85ºF during this time of year, I'm likely going to have to throw it in the chamber to help cool it the rest of the way anyway. And sanitizing the hell out of that thing isn't a problem... I keep a spray-bottle of star san around at all times.


EDIT: And the yeast is WLP810 San Francisco Lager yeast, going into an 1.080 baltic porter.

Also, looking at the calculations from Mr. Malty, it suggests 3 vials for a 2L starter for my 1.080 lager... Can I get by with just one vial or should I really go grab 2 more?

3toes said:

Also, looking at the calculations from Mr. Malty, it suggests 3 vials for a 2L starter for my 1.080 lager... Can I get by with just one vial or should I really go grab 2 more?

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I just ran your beer through the homebrewdad calculator (which I like better than Mr. Malty) and it says a 1.5L starter will get you all the cells you'll need starting with 100 billion (1 wyeast pack/white labs vial) assuming that you are using a stir plate and 1.040 starter wort.

I also would advise against letting your wort sit for too long without pitching, that's just begging for an infection!

EDIT: I also checked on Mr. Malty. The 3 vials is "without a starter" you only need 1 vial with a starter and it agrees on a 1.5L starter. I think you're good to go!

Nm

TheMadKing said:

I just ran your beer through the homebrewdad calculator (which I like better than Mr. Malty)....

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I also prefer the homebrewdad calculator and have incorporated it into my Excel sheet.

Ahhh I gotcha. I must've missed that. I and my ever shrinking wallet thank you!

TheMadKing said:

I just ran your beer through the homebrewdad calculator (which I like better than Mr. Malty) and it says a 1.5L starter will get you all the cells you'll need starting with 100 billion (1 wyeast pack/white labs vial) assuming that you are using a stir plate and 1.040 starter wort.

I also would advise against letting your wort sit for too long without pitching, that's just begging for an infection!

EDIT: I also checked on Mr. Malty. The 3 vials is "without a starter" you only need 1 vial with a starter and it agrees on a 1.5L starter. I think you're good to go!

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I've never used the yeast selected. If you enter the information into Mr malty as a 1.080 lager, I get the same thing as the OP. Am I missing the batch amount somewhere, or do you enter as an ale? Just curious...

oujens said:

I've never used the yeast selected. If you enter the information into Mr malty as a 1.080 lager, I get the same thing as the OP. Am I missing the batch amount somewhere, or do you enter as an ale? Just curious...

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Yeah, that's where I was running into the 2-3 vials suggestion from the calculators. If I leave it on Ale, everything is golden. Since I'm using a lager yeast, and select as such, it seems to up the requirements.

I know the wlp810 is pretty "warm" as far as lager yeasts go... up to 65ºF. I was planning on fermenting somewhere between 50ºF and 55ºF. So I guess it depends on if that is still considered a "harsh" environment for the yeast, thus needing the larger starter.

oujens said:

I've never used the yeast selected. If you enter the information into Mr malty as a 1.080 lager, I get the same thing as the OP. Am I missing the batch amount somewhere, or do you enter as an ale? Just curious...

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Good point, I assumed an ale without thinking. The batch amount is the Volume cell (second from the left).

@3toes are you making a lager or an ale?

the main reason for a higher pitch rate with a lager is to create fewer flavors and to have high attenuation for a very dry and clean fermentation, so it really depends on what the OP wants out of the finished beer.

I should have asked that first thing, good catch!

TheMadKing said:

Good point, I assumed an ale without thinking. The batch amount is the Volume cell (second from the left).

@3toes are you making a lager or an ale?

the main reason for a higher pitch rate with a lager is to create fewer flavors and to have high attenuation for a very dry and clean fermentation, so it really depends on what the OP wants out of the finished beer.

I should have asked that first thing, good catch!

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I'm doing a Baltic Porter with the WLP810 San Francisco Lager yeast, hoping to ferment at about 55ºF.

So I guess it's a lager?

I've actually just emailed White Labs to get some insight as to what might be the temperature threshold for determining whether to calculate the starter as a lager or an ale. I know the WLP810 is pretty warm as far as lager strains go, it'll go up to 65ºF.


Edit: Maybe I can compromise and ferment at 60ºF and use the ale calculation.

3toes said:

I'm doing a Baltic Porter with the WLP810 San Francisco Lager yeast, hoping to ferment at about 55ºF.

So I guess it's a lager?

I've actually just emailed White Labs to get some insight as to what might be the temperature threshold for determining whether to calculate the starter as a lager or an ale. I know the WLP810 is pretty warm as far as lager strains go, it'll go up to 65ºF.


Edit: Maybe I can compromise and ferment at 60ºF and use the ale calculation.

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The fermentation temp is only part of the reason to use a higher cell count with a lager yeast. Yes you need more cells because the cells will be less active in general, but you also want more cells to have a faster fermentation which will yield fewer esters and a cleaner attenuation.

I'm not familiar with what a baltic porter is supposed to taste like. What kind of flavor profile are you aiming for in the finished beer?

EDIT: The style guidelines call for high ABV and a sweet full body. That's pretty consistent with a warmer fermented lager yeast. You want some of the esters in there for sweetness, and the lager strain will get your attenuation. I would just increase the size of your starter to 2L which will give you ~1 million cells/mL (in the mid range between ale and lager). It would be better to overpitch this beer than underpitch it IMO.

TheMadKing said:

The fermentation temp is only part of the reason to use a higher cell count with a lager yeast. Yes you need more cells because the cells will be less active in general, but you also want more cells to have a faster fermentation which will yield fewer esters and a cleaner attenuation.

I'm not familiar with what a baltic porter is supposed to taste like. What kind of flavor profile are you aiming for in the finished beer?

EDIT: The style guidelines call for high ABV and a sweet full body. That's pretty consistent with a warmer fermented lager yeast. You want some of the esters in there for sweetness, and the lager strain will get your attenuation. I would just increase the size of your starter to 2L which will give you ~1 million cells/mL (in the mid range between ale and lager). It would be better to overpitch this beer than underpitch it IMO.

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Thanks! From doing a little searching around on the topic, it seems like a lot of people use the "Hybrid" category in the starter calculators when using the wlp810 yeast. And yeah, that puts it right at 2L.

Received some seemingly important info from White Labs (and posted a thread about it):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7015523#post7015523

from their FAQ section on lager temp pitching:

There are two different methods of pitching lagers. Brewers use each method with success, but every brewer has their preference.

The easiest method is (A).
A) Start the yeast warm and lower to 50-55F after the start of fermentation. The yeast should be pitched at 70 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit. Once you see active fermentation, bring the temperature of the wort down 10 degrees per 12 hours until the desired fermentation temperature has been achieved. This method works well without forming high amounts of esters because most esters are produced after the first 12 hours.


B) Pitch the yeast at the desired fermentation temperature (48-55 Degrees F). Lager yeast ferment well at this temperature, but they grow very slowly. If you are using this method, understand that you may not see signs of activity for 48-72 hours. If starting the fermentation cold, we recommend you make a 1-2 liter starter per 5 gallons, or if a commercial brewery, a starter 10% of the batch size.


You might find either one works, I would recommend option B. Seems most experienced brewers on this board choose this method and have great results. The only way to find out is try both and see what works. I would be concerned about the ability to cool wort down 20F before esters are produced. Maybe someone else with experience can chime in.

You might check out brulosphers quick lagering method. I think he does something similar to pitch warm and then cool.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=518132&page=3

TheMadKing said:

You might check out brulosphers quick lagering method. I think he does something similar to pitch warm and then cool.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=518132&page=3

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This method recommends pitching cold and letting it warm up to fermentation temps. Once 50% attentuation is reached, you start bumping the temp up to D-rest temps, instead of keeping it at fermentation temps until 75% attentuation is reached and then bumping up to D-rest temps. The result should be a faster fermentation and quicker grain to glass (my understanding anyway).

Thanks for everyone's help on this! Had a successful albeit stressful brew day on Saturday. The sky opened up at one point while lautering the mash so I had to haul butt to get everything under my screened in porch.

I pitched the 2L starter at about 55ºF and let it rise to just shy of 60ºF. Even after 24hrs in the fridge it didn't seem like the starter settled very much. I could definitely see the clumped yeast on the bottom, but it also seemed like the vast majority of the starter still had yeast in suspension, with a TINY bit at the very top separated out. So I ended up just pitching the entire starter.

I'm at about 36hrs from pitching right now with no visible signs fermentation has started. I know lager yeasts are a completely different game and I may not see anything at all... It's just a little nerve-racking considering my ales always take off within 18hrs