A simple yeast question...

I am tired of dropping $8 for a slap pack everytime I brew a beer. What I want to do is this:

I use Wyeast 1056 American ale II quite often. So, I want to buy one slap pack, put it in a starter, then divide in 3-5 portions. Sounds simple enough!

Here is the part that is stumping me...How do I know I have a high enough cell count so I can divide it up? Is this possible? I don't think it is necessary to use it in a batch the wash it out of my fermenter. I would rather just do it from the beginning.

Buy one pack, divide to 5 packs, penny saved is a penny earned!

Yes, you could do that. However, I would not pitch 1/3 or 1/5 of a starter into 5 gallons of beer. I would split, then make another starter for the portion you end up using.

Also, be sure to make starters for the other portions when the time comes.

I was tired of buying yeast as well, so I've built quite a yeast library in my fridge. I pitch the original pack (with starter) into first beer, then divide that yeast cake into 3 mason jars, refrigerate, make a starter of one of those and repeat. I only do this for two or three (max) generations, but with my method, I get 13 batches out of one smack pack.

Of you could just use US-05. It's the same strain, much higher cell count, and significantly cheaper.

spiny_norman said:

Of you could just use US-05. It's the same strain, much higher cell count, and significantly cheaper.

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Well, it's not exactly the same, although they might have had the same origin. In a split batch I recently did, I found 1056 to have a bit better mouthfeel even though both it and 05 finished at the same FG. Flavorwise, they were pretty similar, but again not exactly the same.

So the question remains, I make a starter with my yeast pack...how do I know when I have tripled or pentupled (not sure if that is a word...fifth..LOL) so that I essentially have 3 or 5 complete(full original cell count) packs to refridgerate and use at a later date?

A couple years back I had the same question, so I went out and bought a crappy microscope with hemocytometer and trypan staining (for viability), and ran some growth curve analyses on every starter I made on a stir plate. The end result is that with the common strains like American Ale, Irish Ale, Nottingham, etc they all had the same basic growth curve starting with a lawn scraping from 1/3 of an agar plate into 14oz of starter (1.043 with nutrient). After 24 hours, the growth started to top out, around 7 billion viable cells per oz of wort. Coming straight from a spack pack, you'll have no problem reaching that crest in 24 hours or less.

I'll check this from time to time, especially if the strain has been on a plate or frozen in glycerol for a long time. If the growth rate declines, I'll toss it and get a new pack, but this only happens to strains on agar for over 6 months to a year. Never had any slow down with frozen stocks, especially if they're under 4 passages old.

In any case, I use these numbers to gauge how much starter I'll need, assuming 5-10 million cells per ml wort for the brew. Hasn't let me down yet. If it's a healthy starter, dividing it up, storing in the fridge and diluting 1:20 for the next brew should do you well. My experience anyway. Or you could get a scope and cell counter and know for sure. One less thing (and IMO the most important) to worry about.

Doug, is that you? When did you move to Bend?

The only way to REALLY know is to get a microscope and hemocytometer and do cell counts. But that's kinda impractical. Other than that, all you can do is estimate the volume of slurry and decide based on what mrmalty says.

ETA: yeah, like he said! ^^^^

Braufguss said:

Yes, you could do that. However, I would not pitch 1/3 or 1/5 of a starter into 5 gallons of beer. I would split, then make another starter for the portion you end up using.

Also, be sure to make starters for the other portions when the time comes.

I was tired of buying yeast as well, so I've built quite a yeast library in my fridge. I pitch the original pack (with starter) into first beer, then divide that yeast cake into 3 mason jars, refrigerate, make a starter of one of those and repeat. I only do this for two or three (max) generations, but with my method, I get 13 batches out of one smack pack.

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Second that, always make starters for the future brews, even from the portions you take from this pack. Have to get the cell count up. Using my numbers, you know you'll need it.

So I want to ensure I understand the process...

1. Put slap pack in a starter
2. Let it populate for about 24 hours
3. Then do my normal yeast thing...
a. Refridgerate to solidify yeast cake
b. Decant excess wort to about 60%/40% liquid to yeast ratio
c. Swirl into a suspension
4. Divide yeast suspension into 5 different containers
5. Refridgerate until I'm ready to use
6. Create a yeast starter to populate before pitching into my brew

Dhickey, sounds about right!

And I agree with Denny, I just don't like the way US-05 feels. I went to 1056, then to 1272 and I've settled on Wyeast 1450, Denny's Favorite. It's quickly becoming my favorite for lots of things.

I'm still new with brewing, so I don't know alot about different strains, if the recipe says 1056, it is what I use. I am noticing that alot use 1056 though.

dhickey said:

So I want to ensure I understand the process...

1. Put slap pack in a starter
2. Let it populate for about 24 hours
3. Then do my normal yeast thing...
a. Refridgerate to solidify yeast cake
b. Decant excess wort to about 60%/40% liquid to yeast ratio
c. Swirl into a suspension
4. Divide yeast suspension into 5 different containers
5. Refridgerate until I'm ready to use
6. Create a yeast starter to populate before pitching into my brew

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Yep, that's pretty standard. If you want to simplify a bit, after the initial starter, split that into 5 different sterile containers and refridgerate. Then a couple days before brewing, pour off the excess wort (while cold), raise to starter temp, swirl and add to the starter. Just one less refrigeration step. Just make sure the estimated final cell count matches with the size of the brew.

PoppinCaps said:

Yep, that's pretty standard. If you want to simplify a bit, after the initial starter, split that into 5 different sterile containers and refridgerate. Then a couple days before brewing, pour off the excess wort (while cold), raise to starter temp, swirl and add to the starter. Just one less refrigeration step. Just make sure the estimated final cell count matches with the size of the brew.

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That is the part that still eludes me... estimating my cell count

dhickey said:

That is the part that still eludes me... estimating my cell count

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You can use Mr. Malty: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html for help with estimating.

Braufguss said:

Dhickey, sounds about right!

And I agree with Denny, I just don't like the way US-05 feels. I went to 1056, then to 1272 and I've settled on Wyeast 1450, Denny's Favorite. It's quickly becoming my favorite for lots of things.

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Ah, a brewer of taste and refinement! I don't necessarily dislike 05. I just find it a bit different than 1056. When people say that they're the same, I just point out that although they may have started from the same source that they're subtly different these days.

dhickey said:

That is the part that still eludes me... estimating my cell count

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Yeah, it's a lot of guess work without actually doing a cell count with a scope or serial dilutions on plates and counting viable colonies. That's a cheaper way, but not reasonable every time you want to brew. It is handy for characterizing your strains though, and developing a standard practice for yourself to know how many cells should be there.

I'd say Mr Malty is good info as a standard.

In my experience, most strains like to populate to a certain density given time, O2 and nutrients, and then stay there for fermentation. Pretty repeatable too. I'm just one brewer, but if you want to play around with the numbers, I would say you can estimate that a fully grown healthy starter will have around 180-200 million cells per ml. If you calculate that up for pitching, that means a starter of 1.5L (285 billion cells) will pitch at a rate of 15 million cells per ml wort in a 5 gallon batch. That's over the top a bit, but it's also a best case (and not always likely) scenario.

If that's a healthy start for a beer, there's no reason not to assume it will work to make new starters. So if you make a healthy 1L starter from a smack pack, you can essentially make around 7 separate 1.5L starters (140ml each to go into the fridge, each innoculating a 1.5L starter for brewing).

But all of this is estimation based on real numbers. What I found just confirmed what everyone does as normal practice. So if you want to know exactly how many cells you have, get a microscope and hemocytometer or do serial dilutions on plates (PITA). I think you'll find it confirms what everyone here will tell you. Beyond that, diluting a healthy starter 1:10-15 as standard practice will give you good results (almost) every time.

PoppinCaps said:

Beyond that, diluting a healthy starter 1:10-15 as standard practice will give you good results (almost) every time.

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What do you mean by that starter number?

dhickey said:

What do you mean by that starter number?

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I mean diluting the starter volume into the beer at a rate of 1 part starter : 15 parts wort. So if you made a 1.5L starter (cool and drain the excess wort), then added the yeast to 5 gallons (19L) wort. That would be around 1:12.6.