water quantity (not quality) issue

Hopefully I can get some help on this. I keep having problems getting my quantities right for a final amount the fermenter and eventually the keg.

I am shooting for getting 5 gallons of beer into my keg. So I guess I would like to have about 5.5 gallons at the end of my boil, then I could rack the wort off the trub into the fermenter (assuming a 1qt loss) , and at the end of fermentation I would lose another qt as I rack into my keg. This does not seem to be working for me.

I use beersmith, but am constantly having trouble getting it perfectly dialed in.
Example from yesterday's brew day:

I go to brew what I consider to be a simple straightforward IPA.
I follow all beersmith directions.

after mashing my initial boil amount was correct, according to beersmith... still on target.

after boil and chill I take a measurement, and it is at 5.5 gallons. This seems too low. More boil off? seems odd, perhaps it was more vigorous than usual. Didn't seem like it.

Then I whirlpool and rack into the fermenter. I guess, here I am losing more than I thought... more like 2-3 qts.

So... then looking at my brewsheet, it says add water to get to 5.5 gallons. I blindly (and stupidly) follow this, and add some water. Take a gravity reading... which, of course was too low, and pitch my yeast.

My conclusions at this point:
- Shoot for a 6gallon boil. This will make up for racking from the trub both into the fermenter and the keg.
- Don't add extra water???
- Don't whirlpool?

Any thoughts? maybe I have another beersmith problem... or maybe another terminology problem.

I think you are losing too much when you whirlpool so why don't you quit that and just dump the whole mess into the fermenter and let it settle out into the bottom of the yeast cake? You will end up with a thicker cake from the hops, etc but less than you are leaving when you whirlpool.

I think you are losing too much when you whirlpool so why don't you quit that and just dump the whole mess into the fermenter and let it settle out into the bottom of the yeast cake? You will end up with a thicker cake from the hops, etc but less than you are leaving when you whirlpool.

Click to expand...

Don't do this.


Try going to a 6 gallon batch size in Beersmith and see if that helps you get more into the fermenter. I welded a valve onto my 11 gallon kettle and have found that with my kettle geometry I leave almost a gallon behind when racking off the hops and cold break. I have moved to a 6.5 gallon batch size which allows me to rack ~5.5 gallons into my fermenter. Don't think of it as losing a gallon of wort, its really keeping 5.5 gallons of the wort that you want and discarding the scraps. You don't want all those hops and crap in your fermenter if you can avoid it.

RM-MN said:

I think you are losing too much when you whirlpool so why don't you quit that and just dump the whole mess into the fermenter and let it settle out into the bottom of the yeast cake? You will end up with a thicker cake from the hops, etc but less than you are leaving when you whirlpool.

Click to expand...

I have done this in that past and seemingly have had no bad results. It sure is easier!BUT in looking for constant improvement, I was trying to leave that trub out of the fermenter.

MachineShopBrewing said:

Don't do this.


Try going to a 6 gallon batch size in Beersmith and see if that helps you get more into the fermenter. I welded a valve onto my 11 gallon kettle and have found that with my kettle geometry I leave almost a gallon behind when racking off the hops and cold break. I have moved to a 6.5 gallon batch size which allows me to rack ~5.5 gallons into my fermenter. Don't think of it as losing a gallon of wort, its really keeping 5.5 gallons of the wort that you want and discarding the scraps. You don't want all those hops and crap in your fermenter if you can avoid it.

Click to expand...

That was the only conclusion I came to. Up the amounts so that after all was said and done, I would end up with 5.25 - 5.5 gallons of wort.

Yep, that is the best way to do it.

If you just throw all those hops and crap in there, they will be in effect "dry hopping" the whole time and you will extract all kinds of vegetal and harsh flavors from them.

MachineShopBrewing said:

Yep, that is the best way to do it.

If you just throw all those hops and crap in there, they will be in effect "dry hopping" the whole time and you will extract all kinds of vegetal and harsh flavors from them.

Click to expand...

I call B.S. on that dumping hops in will give veggie or harsh flavors. I have done it bolth ways and the end was all good beer. But yes, If I want 5gal. in the keg I make a 6 gal. brew.

So I guess I would like to have about 5.5 gallons at the end of my boil

Click to expand...

after boil and chill I take a measurement, and it is at 5.5 gallons. This seems too low

Click to expand...

Um...what? I am totally confused by this. You say you want 5.5 gallons at the end of your boil, and you have 5.5 gallons at the end of your boil.

If you really want more than this before getting to the fermenter, then adjust the losses in the settings for your equipment in Beersmith. I guess for your particular case "Loss to Boil Trub and Chiller"

Are all your vessles marked? Fermentor, Carboy, Bottling bucket, kettle... If not it maybe worth marking everything at least with a 5gal line and a graduation to 6gal..

If they are already marked you may want to make sure all the marks are true to each other...

I call B.S. on that dumping hops in will give veggie or harsh flavors. I have done it bolth ways and the end was all good beer. But yes, If I want 5gal. in the keg I make a 6 gal. brew.

Click to expand...

Do it side by side and have an expert palate review the results, then get back to me. Yes, you can make beer by dumping it all in, but we are in the business of making the best beer possible aren't we? Why half-ass something when it is so easy to just make it the best it can be.

way to many brewers dump it in and are making the best damn beer..I cant dump mine,the keggle is just to heavy. not tryn to debate or argue brother, I just dont buy that. I did dump it all in when I was doing 5 gal. at a time..but hey, its all good..

Definitely need to shoot for 6gal at the end of the boil. This is what I do, with 5.5 in the fermentor, and I'm usually right around 5 in the keg. Sometimes on hoppy beers it's maybe a quart less in the keg.

I like to eliminate trub in the fermentor but I'm not obsessive about it. In fact, I just got a whirlpool chiller set up, and it actually increased the amount of trub I get in the fermentor, but also increased the volume of liquid. It settles out, the beer tastes the same as it used to, and frankly I'll settle for less time spent chilling.

I like to eliminate trub in the fermentor but I'm not obsessive about it. In fact, I just got a whirlpool chiller set up, and it actually increased the amount of trub I get in the fermentor, but also increased the volume of liquid. It settles out, the beer tastes the same as it used to, and frankly I'll settle for less time spent chilling.

Click to expand...

That's my approach also. I recently went from 6 gallons to 6.5 gallons at the end of the boil due to the amount of trub I was getting and my kettle geometry in relation to the valve I welded on.

way to many brewers dump it in and are making the best damn beer..I cant dump mine,the keggle is just to heavy. not tryn to debate or argue brother, I just dont buy that. I did dump it all in when I was doing 5 gal. at a time..but hey, its all good.

Click to expand...

Quoted from How To Brew:

soapy flavors can result from the breakdown of fatty acids in the trub. Soap is, by definition, the salt of a fatty acid; so you are literally tasting soap.

Click to expand...

I am also not trying to start an argument. I'm just saying that if it is possible to leave it in the kettle as the OP sounds like he wants to, then why not? If someone likes to pour it all in and they like the beer it makes, then rock on brotha...

Sounds most agree that the solution, should I want to leave the trub in the kettle (not in the fermenter), is to go to a 6 gallon boil.

I have made many batches just dumping the whole mess into the fermenter, and I thought the beer was great. I never noticed any off flavors... at least not from hops. That said, I'm hoping I can even get better, if I leave the trub behind in the kettle. It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison.


To answer someone else's question (I may not have been clear, but I'm too lazy to figure out what I said that was vague) my goal is to simply and ultimately have 5 gallons go into my keg.

When I was bottling, I was so greedy about how much packaged beer I would end up with. I was packing in as much malt as would fit in my mash tun, going through my entire process, straining the wort into the fermentor, and then using water to top up to 6.5gal. I couldn't bare to leave a single drop of liquid behind when it could have gone into a bottle.

Now that I'm kegging, I'm so much more willing to accept the loss of several quarts, so long as I can get a full keg. But you always lose more than you expect, so going to 6gal should definitely be your first step.

MachineShopBrewing said:

Yep, that is the best way to do it.

If you just throw all those hops and crap in there, they will be in effect "dry hopping" the whole time and you will extract all kinds of vegetal and harsh flavors from them.

Click to expand...

MachineShopBrewing said:

Do it side by side and have an expert palate review the results, then get back to me. Yes, you can make beer by dumping it all in, but we are in the business of making the best beer possible aren't we? Why half-ass something when it is so easy to just make it the best it can be.

Click to expand...

Please show a couple of references that dumping the hops debris into the fermenter will "extract all kinds of vegetal and harsh flavors from them". I've never seen a reference, and I'd love to see that.

I have heard Jamil Z talk about removing hot break before fermentation, to ensure a "cleaner" flavor, but never about straining out hops and risking vegetal flavors. I'm going to have to totally tear apart my brewery to change it if I have to start whirlpooling.

I should elaborate on my "whirlpool." I just stir to create awhirlpool, let it sit and have the trub settle then rack it to my fermenter, leaving as much as I can behind. Poor man's whirlpool.

I have heard Jamil Z talk about removing hot break before fermentation, to ensure a "cleaner" flavor, but never about straining out hops and risking vegetal flavors

Click to expand...

Why would it not? You have a bunch of hops sitting in the fermenter extracting all kinds of crap into the beer. I don't have time at the moment to find any references, but just think about the process that is going on and it makes sense that you would be extracting something out of those hops sitting there just like a dry hop. And with most people here leaving it in the fermenter for 3+ weeks I can imagine that there would be something noticeable in the finished beer, especially if it had a lot of kettle hops.

MachineShopBrewing said:

Why would it not? You have a bunch of hops sitting in the fermenter extracting all kinds of crap into the beer. I don't have time at the moment to find any references, but just think about the process that is going on and it makes sense that you would be extracting something out of those hops sitting there just like a dry hop. And with most people here leaving it in the fermenter for 3+ weeks I can imagine that there would be something noticeable in the finished beer, especially if it had a lot of kettle hops.

Click to expand...

Well, it doesn't seem to just "make sense" to me, when I've made 250+ batches of beer and most of them aren't strained. In fact, all the cold break goes in, since I have a CFC. My all electric 1/2 barrel system doesn't let me whirlpool.

I need to see a reference because I don't think you're correct. Sure, maybe intuitively "crap" in the fermenter wouldn't be a good thing. But I've never heard anyone, from Jamil to John Palmer, say that it causes "vegetal and harsh flavors". If you have the experience that it certainly does, we need to hear about it but also have the references.

Just saying "I think this is bad" isn't good enough for me to tear out my brewery and rebuild!

Who are you leaving so much behind? That would be the first problem to look at IMO. Do you have a dip tube in the kettle? Are you pulling siphon from it? I leave less than a cup of liquid with a simple diptube in my keg.

IrregularPulse said:

Who are you leaving so much behind? That would be the first problem to look at IMO. Do you have a dip tube in the kettle? Are you pulling siphon from it? I leave less than a cup of liquid with a simple diptube in my keg.

Click to expand...

If you were asking me:

I just have an ol' autosiphon that use to rack the wort to the fermenter. I leave so much behind b/c that is where the clear wort stops and the cold break starts. If I keep all that I would just dump straight to the fermenter. I can tell you that it makes my life a ton easier and quicker just to dump. Aerates (only way I have at the moment) and I don't have to wait for the cold break to settle. dump and done.

I use a hop bag for my hops, do I need to worry about any of this? I now have a 7.5g kettle with a ball valve and I end up leaving most the trub behind, but I honestly don't worry about it too much.

Well, it doesn't seem to just "make sense" to me, when I've made 250+ batches of beer and most of them aren't strained. In fact, all the cold break goes in, since I have a CFC. My all electric 1/2 barrel system doesn't let me whirlpool.

I need to see a reference because I don't think you're correct. Sure, maybe intuitively "crap" in the fermenter wouldn't be a good thing. But I've never heard anyone, from Jamil to John Palmer, say that it causes "vegetal and harsh flavors". If you have the experience that it certainly does, we need to hear about it but also have the references.

Just saying "I think this is bad" isn't good enough for me to tear out my brewery and rebuild!

Click to expand...

I'm not trying to stir anything up nor am I suggesting that anyone should change what they are doing if it works for them. I am just looking at the process of throwing all the hop matter right into the fermenter and thinking that there should be some grassy, tannic, or vegetal flavors that would come out of all those hops sitting in the bottom of the fermenter for 2+ weeks. I have done quite a bit of dry hopping and I know if you leave it too long you get some of these flavors extracted from the hops. To be honest I will have to do more research to see if I can find anybody who has found this out and has the necessary qualifications to be believed other than a rube like me. Sorry to the OP that this has morphed into the thread that it is, but, hey this is a discussion forum and thats what happens I guess.

To the OP: you should measure how much you leave behind in the kettle and fermenter, rather than assuming you're leaving a quart in each. Then you'll know exactly how much more to boil to get your target volume.

MachineShopBrewing said:

Sorry to the OP that this has morphed into the thread that it is, but, hey this is a discussion forum and thats what happens I guess.

Click to expand...

Doesn't bother me. I'm interested in this topic too.

ksbrain said:

To the OP: you should measure how much you leave behind in the kettle and fermenter, rather than assuming you're leaving a quart in each. Then you'll know exactly how much more to boil to get your target volume.

Click to expand...

You are probably right, and that makes sense, but couldn't that change depending on the amount of grain and hops used?

Yoop,

From what I can find its not really a big deal that the cold break goes in as long as it isn't sitting on it forever. I am really interested in the hop matter going in and the side effects of it. Commercial brewers send the cold break into the fermenter but they whirlpool the hop matter out. Mostly because they can and its hard to keep break material out with the chilling methods used.

I am sure the flavors extracted from the hops may be negligible and vary from beer to beer, but I would imagine that there is something going on with the hop particles in the fermenter just as with dry hopping.

I think if hop matter from the boil made any impact on the beer,J.P. and others would write a book about it.

MachineShopBrewing said:

I am sure the flavors extracted from the hops may be negligible and vary from beer to beer, but I would imagine that there is something going on with the hop particles in the fermenter just as with dry hopping.

Click to expand...

I would agree with this. 98% of the time it's a non factor. It's nothing to get all worked up over. If you end up with some trub and hops in your fermenter, don't worry it has very little effect on the beer.

Perhaps if you made a 100 ibu beer with all low alpha hops, you'd have so much hop matter that it may come off as grassy or vegetal. But for any normal brew it just doesn't matter.

Sometimes I feel the obsession with clear wort goes just a bit too far.

Old_E said:

You are probably right, and that makes sense, but couldn't that change depending on the amount of grain and hops used?

Click to expand...

I would think it would be a predictable amount based on the recipe.

Sometimes I feel the obsession with clear wort goes just a bit too far.

Click to expand...

Isn't this hobby all about obsession?