Spontaneous fermentation, no hops... Now what?

My local microbrewery was giving away a the second runnings wort from a partigyle mash, so i picked up 10 gal (1.065 og). I had planned on making two batched of Belgian dubbel with different yeast strains for comparison. Life intervened, and i didn't get to brew until a week later.

One of the carboys began fermentation in the basement... I'm guessing from some residual yeast from the brewery. I didn't Know what to do , so i rolled with it and added the specialty grains, sugar etc but didn't add hops or do the usual boil. It has been fermenting for about three days as usual.

Question: What next? Do I shift gears and look at making a treacle-styled braggot, or can i still get a decent dubbel by dry hopping in secondary? I had planned on 2oz of hersbruckers (1oz @ 60min, 1oz, @ 15min)... Can I still get decent results with whole hops? If so, how much and for how long?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Follow-up: I did get the second batch off without any issues, so i will have something to compare against.

i would have still boiled it. Without boiled hops, there will be zero bitterness. Dry hops are for aroma.
Google hop tea or something- maybe you can boil some water & hops, to add to the brew.
good luck.

So you got 10 gallons and split it into 2 fermenters, and one took off on it's own?

After raw wort sat a week I'd want to reboil everything, maybe I am misunderstanding the question.

I can't be sure, but the fermentation activity you're seeing is more likely to be from the various bugs that exist on the malt, not the yeast from the brewery. I would give it a taste right away to see if it is souring or otherwise off-tasting.

(I got wort from Newport Storm, too! I put mine outside, though, until I could brew. Had some nice ice chunks, but no spoilage)

Bil said:

I would give it a taste right away to see if it is souring or otherwise off-tasting.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't do that. Some of the wild yeasts and bacteria that live on wort that doesn't have significant amounts of ethanol yet aren't something that you'd want to ingest. Candida, clostridium and such.

Ten gal of wort from Newport Storm, split in two carboys. I kept both in the basement since it was so cold. We had a warm spell, and one started bubbling, which is why I'm inclined to think that it's yeast from the factory. Doesn't smell funky, so I'll let it go for a while and see how it turns out. I did pitch a starter that i had salvaged from a few Maudite bottles.

Great advice on the hop tea- I think i will give that a shot. Worst case, I'm only out a few bucks for the specialty grains.

Bil said:

I can't be sure, but the fermentation activity you're seeing is more likely to be from the various bugs that exist on the malt, not the yeast from the brewery.

Click to expand...

This was a second running, already mashed, doubtful if many bugs survived the process.

Possible, but not probable.

ok, if there ARE nasties in there, then take a sample and microwave it. then check the flavor.

if you are wasting your time on sour garbage truck swill, you will be twice as frustrated with any further time/money/ingredients spent on it. (no, i refuse to ever admit first hand edu-ma-ca-shum on that one).

if THEY didnt boil it ..... and YOU didnt boil it .... then you have possible bug legs and rat poop in a brett-laced liquid culture. (yeah, wort case scenario)

(or ferment it out, and see if it will make MAY day presents - if it's GOOD give it to your FRIENDS ...)

SKMO said:

This was a second running, already mashed, doubtful if many bugs survived the process.

Possible, but not probable.

Click to expand...

You wouldn't say that if you ever seen/smelled a mash tun that hadn't been cleaned out for a couple days! Plenty of wild yeasts and bacteria make it through the mashing process.

I seriously wouldn't drink that stuff without boiling it.

Wow, people sure are afraid of infected beer!! I would taste it just to make sure it is yeast, then do a hop tea. Maybe blend it with something?

Question: when you say you "rolled with it and added the specialty grains, sugar etc" what does this mean?

Because I have a horrible vision of creating something terrible.

theredben said:

Wow, people sure are afraid of infected beer!! I would taste it just to make sure it is yeast, then do a hop tea. Maybe blend it with something?

Click to expand...

You could have a nice big carboy full of e. coli and several other things that will make you extremely sick. They can smell "funky" or "sour" but be something considerably different from what normally makes a beer funky or sour.

theredben said:

Wow, people sure are afraid of infected beer!! I would taste it just to make sure it is yeast, then do a hop tea. Maybe blend it with something?

Click to expand...

It's not infected beer, it's infected wort.

Would you eat the vegetables that have been sitting in the back of your crisper drawer for 3 years just because they started spontaneously fermenting?

kanzimonson said:

Question: when you say you "rolled with it and added the specialty grains, sugar etc" what does this mean?

Because I have a horrible vision of creating something terrible.

Click to expand...

Since I have kept the wort sealed, I have led with the premise that the fermentation is due to residual yeast from the brewery that became active as my basement warmed with the corresponding change in weather; about an inch of krauesen on top...with a clean, neutral smell to the wort, with no off smells or flavors noted. Rather that toss it, I'm going to ferment to completion and see what comes from it.

Specifics:
- I took some Special B and Caramel 60 and soaked in about a gal of water to extract the flavors; to this I added 1.5# Dark Belgian Candi sugar, miked thouroughly, and added to the fermenter with the wort.
- On top of all this, I pitched a 1L starter of Slurry that I harvested and cultured from some Maudite 750ml bottles. (Also added a Tbsp of yeast nutrient for complete fermentation.) OG settled in at 1065.
- I did give the wort a small taste prior to sealing the fermenter... spicy Dubbel, with lots of caramel, toffy, and hints of stone fruit. Fermentation has settled down to a dull roar. My plan is to rack to seconday later this week and check for off smells/flavors. As long as nothing seems off, I'll add the hop tea and let it condition in secondary for a while. More to follow...

----------
Follow-on questions for this batch:
What other effects will the no-boil have on the outcome?
- Certainly there is the possibility of infection as others have mentioned; if so, I'll toss the batch, though I do not believe that a non-yeast infection has occured.
-With no boil, I won't get hot and cold breaks, so I anticipate a fairly cloudy/hazy beer. KC finings, prerhaps?
- Boil time certainly has a large impact on overall IBUs; is there a corresponding relationship with sugar utilization/overall efficiency, i.e., boil breaks down the sugar chains into a more fermentable product? Certainly sugar extraction during Mashing/Lautering is highly affected by temp, though I can't say I remember reading anything about the effects of temp during the boil.

-------
For comparison, I also did the second batch on Sunday, w/ a 60 min boil and hops (Hersbrucker - 1oz@60, 1oz@15). Used 1.0L starter Wyeast Belgian Abbey, and fermentation has been VIGOROUS (blew the airlock off, so I switched to a blowoff tube!).

Worst case, I have at least one good batch of beer in the works, maybe two. Any other ways to test for spoilage, or is it the consensus of the group that I should just forego the risk and toss the batch?

Thanks to everyone for the advice - more is always appreciated.

Just to clear up a few things:

Reverse Apache Master: Although it is unlikely that there is E. Coli in this beer/wort, the chances are almost 100% that it would be one of the same strains that it found in the intestines of every single healthy human on the planet. Botulism is also not an issue due to low pH and a aerobic enviroment.

weirdboy: I would agree that eating 4 week old lettuce would not taste very good, but we are talking about safety here and there are no safety concerns with infected wort.

theredben said:

there are no safety concerns with infected wort.

Click to expand...

Hopefully no one out there will come across your comments and get himself or herself sick.

If the wort was never boiled, wont you have some DMS issues?

Unsure about the DMS... this is a new animal for me. Here's what I read from Palmer's book:

DMS is produced in the wort during the boil by the reduction of another compound, S-methyl-methionine (SMM), which is itself produced during malting. When a malt is roasted or toasted, the SMM is reduced beforehand and does not manifest as DMS in the wort, which explains why it is more prevalent in pale lagers. In other styles, DMS is a common off-flavor, and can be caused by poor brewing practices or bacterial infections.

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

Click to expand...

Since there was no boil, is DMS even generated? If it does manifest itself, will bottle conditioning improve it over time?

Next question - does anyone have any experience with this product? It seems like it might fix my no bittering hops problem:
http://morebeer.com/view_product/7835/103026/IsoHop_Bitterness_Extract_1_oz

So you didn't boil the specialty grains? That's where the fermentation is probably coming from - the bacteria and yeast that are actually on the grains.

He said he added the specialty grains after it started fermenting.

Did you boil the water that the specialty grains were steeped in though?

Boiled water for specialty grains; steeped grains, added candi sugar, then added to the wort.

The carboy was filled at the brewery and remained sealed with an airlock until I noticed the krausen, hence my suspicion that it is due to yeast picked up from the brewery.

What I'm really interested in hearing opinions on is 1) is it likely to be relatively safe for consumption, and 2) if so, recommended options for bittering, conditioning, etc.

Thanks!

kanzimonson said:

So you didn't boil the specialty grains? That's where the fermentation is probably coming from - the bacteria and yeast that are actually on the grains.

Click to expand...

He added the speciality grains after he saw signs of fermentation.

I can't wait to hear what this tastes like, seems to puke all over conventional wisdom. I definitely endorse this

weirdboy said:

It's not infected beer, it's infected wort.

Click to expand...

I always thought that infected wort was called beer.

beerrepository said:

He added the speciality grains after he saw signs of fermentation.

I can't wait to hear what this tastes like, seems to puke all over conventional wisdom. I definitely endorse this

Click to expand...

Thanks for the vote of confidence... I've made mead, cider and wine without a boil and haven't gotten sick off anything I've made... this has certainly been an unconventional approach, so it's good to hear some positive feedback from some more experienced brewers.

I figure 6+ weeks till its ready, so I'll post an update around the end of March.

I think it will be ok. Isn't this how the Belgians make lambic? They don't any yeast, they just let it ferment with whatever wild yeast and bacteria happens to be floating around.

gio said:

I think it will be ok. Isn't this how the Belgians make lambic? They don't any yeast, they just let it ferment with whatever wild yeast and bacteria happens to be floating around.

Click to expand...

Yes, but they boil it first.

ArcaneXor said:

Hopefully no one out there will come across your comments and get himself or herself sick.

Click to expand...

Sick from what, may I ask?

weirdboy said:

Yes, but they boil it first.

Click to expand...

How 'bout this?

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/allgrain/AG-Kinderweisse.pdf

This version does a single infusion (mash hopped) with no boil... just chill the wort and pitch.

NUCCjollygreen said:

How 'bout this?

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/allgrain/AG-Kinderweisse.pdf

This version does a single infusion (mash hopped) with no boil... just chill the wort and pitch.

Click to expand...

Wort typically has a pH of about 5.4. Once you add the yeast and it reproduces and begins to produce ethanol, it drops down into the low 4s. Low pH and ethanol, along with the anti-microbial properties of hops, are what accounts for the extreme rarity of beer-borne illnesses.
Letting unhopped, unboiled wort sit for a week gives potential pathogens much more time to become established. The truth is that we can't know whether or not your "beer" is safe or not. It could potentially be hazardous, but it might also be just fine. You'll have to do the risk-benefit analysis of consuming the beer on your own. I would have dumped it.

While I agree it's probably best to dump it, that would only be from a taste concern. People have infected beer all the time and no one gets hurt.

theredben said:

While I agree it's probably best to dump it, that would only be from a taste concern. People have infected beer all the time and no one gets hurt.

Click to expand...

yes but THAT BEER HAS BEEN BOILED

It also has had hops added and usually a good amount of yeast has fermented it as well.

Regardless of whether it was boiled or not, it could have the bacteria now. Hops don't make a difference, they are ruported to be anti-bacterial, they don't choose to only inhibit the "bad" guys. If a good amount of yeast has already taken hold, then how would it be infected?

You are making a big assumption that it's yeast in there.

Actually, without a boil I am assuming that there will be a huge amount of bacteria. Just not pathogenic species.

Update:

Racked both batches today; the boiled version smelled great, and should be ready for bottling next weekend.

The spontaneous fermented/no hopped version has slowed down and looks done. While racking, I snuck a taste but didn't swallow in case it was infection after all. The taste is somewhere between lemonade and cherries... both characteristic of lambic or brett. It reminded me of the aforementioned kinderweisse, without the bitterness to balance the acid. I intend to make the hop tea later this weekend as discussed to correct.

Thoughts?

Assuming that it is safe yeast and not boiling the wort is insane IMO. There is a reason everyone tries to keep everything sterile as possible and we pitch the yeast shortly after boiling. It gives less time for infection. Even if you believe the container was sterile, if something nasty had a week to take hold it may get nasty. Fungii, bacteria, and god knows what else could be growing in your beer. It may be fine as well, but is it really worth the risk?

408Brewer said:

Assuming that it is safe yeast and not boiling the wort is insane IMO. There is a reason everyone tries to keep everything sterile as possible and we pitch the yeast shortly after boiling. It gives less time for infection. Even if you believe the container was sterile, if something nasty had a week to take hold it may get nasty. Fungii, bacteria, and god knows what else could be growing in your beer. It may be fine as well, but is it really worth the risk?

Click to expand...

Was flying a kite in a thunderstorm worth the risk? I mean, I know we preach sanitation because it is critical to consistently produce good beer, but what is so wrong with experimenting sometimes? The whole idea of beer was believed to be an accident and someone was brave enough to take a taste. No one is saying this is going to win awards, it's just to see what happens. People need to lighten up.

NUCCjollygreen said:

Update:

Racked both batches today; the boiled version smelled great, and should be ready for bottling next weekend.

The spontaneous fermented/no hopped version has slowed down and looks done. While racking, I snuck a taste but didn't swallow in case it was infection after all. The taste is somewhere between lemonade and cherries... both characteristic of lambic or brett. It reminded me of the aforementioned kinderweisse, without the bitterness to balance the acid. I intend to make the hop tea later this weekend as discussed to correct.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Sounds awesome! Thought of a name yet? Something about it being "All-Natural"?