Ale yeast flavor vs. starter

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I have read all the posts I could find on making a starter, which seems like the way to go. I made a lager before and would have been better to have a starter then. My question is this:

Using the Wyeast 1084 Irish ale on a brewhouse red ale kit, wouldn't it be better to NOT use a starter, if I can verify that my yeast is proofing ok? My logic being, people say ales benefit more from longer fermenting times and the flavours (esters, etc) developed over time given off because of this. If I pitch as per Mr Malty, wont the fermentation kick off quickly and be more aggressive and be done faster, thus going against the development of flavours for Ales?

Thanks in advance!
 
If you are fermenting in the correct temp range, the ferment should really be any more aggressive with a starter than without. What you get is less of a lag between pitching and start of fermentation and less of a chance that the yeast will stall out before it finishes.
 
Try it both ways and see which you prefer.

Mr. Malty pitch rate takes into account a growth factor (and it's twice the magnitude for ales already). I'll go with JZ's numbers myself.
 
Not really sure where you are getting ales need a long time to develop flavors...

A starter is designed to grow a lot of healthy yeast. Period. Under pitching can stress yeast. That can cause off flavors (more ester production) and possibly a stalled/stuck fermentation. Pitching the proper amount of yeast allows for a quick start (less chance of infections) and a healthy ferment. When fermentation is done, you need to give the yeast time to finish. They still do stuff after they are done eating the sugars. Namely metabolizing the diacetyl and some esters they produced during fermentation. Maybe that is what you are thinking of?

Also 944play - The Mr Malty calculator IS Jamil's...so the numbers should be the same...
 
I'm confused by what you are saying as well...BUT

It's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast for all beers above 1.020 OG...

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind.

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days.

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!


But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast. You may find the "bothering" to make a starter will make even the less than best kit beer come out tasting great.

:mug:
 
Ed,

I think where my head was at on that is that ales tend to be beers that have a a more pronounced flavor with more complex elements. I remember reading on the forums that lagers are fermented colder as the yeast doesn't have the same warmer fermentation period, meaning the yeast isn't as 'active' in producing it's esters, etc. I'm probably way off in explaining this, but in general, understood that warmth = yeast growth = more flavours being released due to the temp. So being an ale, you want a longer period, more warmth for it to give off more flavour. Having ALOT of yeast in there (ie starter) means that whole period is shortened as the count of yeast can eat the sugars faster, thus the process is done quicker, thus the 'flavor' development period is way shorter = a less 'complex' or flavorful beer.

Am I out in left field on this one? lol
 
Yea, completely out on that one.

Ale yeast and lager yeast are two different beasts. Ale yeasts like warmer tempeatures, do the bulk of fermentation on the top of the vessel (hence top cropping or top fermenting) and produce more flavors due to fermentation (esters etc). Technically, the warmer the temp, the faster the yeast work, and the more byproducts they put off. Thats why if you ferment really hot, you get all kinds of nasty off flavors. Same thing for under pitching. Instead of thinking of a starter as "more yeast", think of it as the PROPER amount of yeast.
 
Ahhh.... thanks so much Revvy and Ed for clearing this up! I read so much on the forums and kindof try to put things together from what I gather.. this makes way more sense.. So really, you CAN make beer with a smack-pack and it will work, but using a starter makes the yeast work without stress, reproduce properly and produce the flavours that are MEANT to be tasted! I guess that explains why I read that OVERpitching can be just as bad as underpitching.. I am definitely getting started on this starter tonight! :)

Thanks for the quick and helpful answers guys! I hope I will be able to contribute to these forums someday with things Ive learned :)
 
I think the "overpitching is bad thing" is one of those urban brewing legends that has gone by the wayside. I think mr malty has really done a lot to prove to us that more yeast IS better yeast. I would much rather pitch too much yeast than not enough. ESPECIALLY where lagers are concerned.
 
I think overpitching can be a bad thing, but the question would be how much yeast really is OVERpitching?

Some folks also think that some beers benefit from flavors that can be produced by a longer reproduction phase in the carboy. I can't say it's true or not since I haven't experimented with it, but it shows that in brewing things aren't always black and white. There are few 100% hard fast rules.

Try things out and see how you like the beer that comes out of them! The hobby is all about experimenting. There's lots of folks on here that have tons of knowledge on here (you've heard from at least a couple in this thread) and they learned a lot of what they know from trying things and seeing how they work out. Enjoy yourself, heed good advice but don't get too wrapped up in "the rules". :mug:
 
I tried both ways and I vastly prefer the quick and done faster method. I just brewed an Irish red 2 weeks ago and I used a 1.5L starter. Sure it's a bit much but the OG was on the higher end of the style and also I love huge starters. I found that I liked the flavor a lot better when I used a big starter compared to when i was bordering around under pitching rates. But that's the fun of it, play with it and see what you like!
 
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