When to add crystal malt and honey?

Hey folks...about to try my hand at brewing all grain for the first time. I'm thinking of using these malts/adjuncts (I haven't decided on hops...and I'm also considering adding some ginger root and blueberries in at their appropriate stages):

8 lbs. Pale malt (2-row or 6-row...haven't decided yet)
1 lb. Crystal 20L
1lb. - 1.5 lbs. pure clover honey

Obviously I'm going to mash the pale malt (unsure if I'll use the one-step infusion mash that Charlie P talks about or the multiple-step temperature adjustment that he talks about to get a protein rest, etc...I welcome opinions on that topic). It seems like most people just hold everything around 150-158 F for an hour or so, but I thought this was highly dependent on how modified your malt was?

I know if I brewed with an extract, I could just steep the crystal because a lot of the sugars are ready to go. I know they don't need to be mashed, but does it help to just include them in the mash anyway? I don't know when else I would add them in if not with the mash...so did I just answer my own question? haha

Also, when do y'all add the honey in? I'm scared that if I boil it the whole time, I'll lose the hint of honey flavor I'm looking for...so should I add it closer to the end of the boil?

I welcome any insight on any of this (recipe, mash strategy to use, when to add what). Thanks...you guys rock! :rockin:

The crystal grain goes into the mash with the other grains. Don't do a protein rest on well-modified malt- just do a single infusion mash at 153 or so for that recipe. Using lots of wheat, etc, may change that but at this point you're better off avoiding a protein rest and just going with a single infusion mash at a moderate temperature.

Honey can go in at flame out, or in secondary, so that you can preserve some of the honey characteristics. It'll ferment out completely, but hopefully you'll have a hint of flavor from it.

Thanks Yooper! I figured those were the appropriate times, but it's nice to have it confirmed by someone with much more experience than me!

Anyone tried a honey/ginger/blueberry combo before? I figure it's not too radical, but I wanted to celebrate my independence from kit brews by adding a couple things in! Don't want a weird flavor combo though...

I know I'll need to decrease the amount of hops for sure...think I might use 1 oz. of Amarillo hops at the start of boil and 1 oz. with 5 mins left for aroma...

I add the honey at flame out. Dont expect a huge flavor contribution from the honey, the ginger and blueberry will put up much more than the honey. In regards of the ginger and blueberry I have not used them but I know a little goes a long way and make sure its good quality ginger.

Randy Mosher's book Radical Brewing talks a lot about using spices and adjuncts while brewing, it is a great source for anyone who wants to add a little something extra to their beer. It is also a great read.

Having done a few brews with ginger, I highly suggest going easy with it. Are you using freshly ground ginger? Or just the dried ginger powder? Don't ever use more than 1 tsp of ginger powder for 5 gal batch unless you're going for a purely ginger beer. I believe fresh ginger imparts a stronger flavor so I wouldn't recommend more than 3/4 tsp or even half tsp.

Yooper said:

The crystal grain goes into the mash with the other grains.

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I just read something last night re: this point in an old Zymurgy article (authored by Mosher, I believe). Can’t remember the title, but the gist was “10 ways to make better use of your crystal malts”. One of his points was that you may get a little more character out of your crystal malt if you add at sparge as opposed to the mash. He flat out recommended doing so, in fact. The reason being, that the mash enzymes will reduce…

…and then I’m a little lost. I can’t remember what his point was. Worse, I’m not able to figure what his point might have been, b/c as far as I know, the only thing mashing crystal malt will do that steeping won’t, is to convert a few remaining starches that weren’t zapped in the malting process into sugars. I can see the argument that doing this would dry out the beer a little more with a few more fermentables, but I don’t see why it should somehow reduce the character that the crystals bring to the table.

Since the title of the thread is specifically calls out “when to add crystal malt…” I don’t believe I can be accused of a total hijack.

So, thoughts?

http://makingyourownbeer.com/homebrew-recipes/i-am-mental-1789257.html

I found that discussion. It's tough to muddle through... guess the main point re: crystal malts was that amylase enzymes "can break down the more complex crystal malt sugars leaving the beer lacking in body". They also mention adding dark grains at sparge to prevent astringency.

Is one pound of crystal too much with a base of 8 pounds for the OP? I made a couple of IPAs before the winter -- 9lbs base, .5lb crystal @ 152F for 90 min mash and 90 min boil, both had about 1/2lb of chinook total -- and both (!) have a sweet smoothness that really bug me. I fermented them at 64F -- both went from about 1.065 or so to 1.010 give or take, so they're okay gravity-wise, but I can definitely detect the crystal.

Next spring when I start brewing again (had to pack it up for the Chicago winter), I plan to go the Nogne 100 route -- big, strong beer, big hops -- but zero crystal. Plus, I plan to do a couple of additional things: (a) add 1 tsp of gypsum to the boil to bring out a bit more of the hops and (b) do a longer string of late addition hops (instead of 60/10/2, I plan to go with 60/20/15/10/5/2/0).

I realize there's all kinds of variables here -- both for the OP and my brief description here -- but I'm really bumming in my ill-fated IPAs (the last brews of my season).

Would .25 crystal bring out the flavor but reduce the "there's crystal in here" sweetness?

bobbytuck said:

Is one pound of crystal too much with a base of 8 pounds for the OP? I made a couple of IPAs before the winter -- 9lbs base, .5lb crystal @ 152F for 90 min mash and 90 min boil, both had about 1/2lb of chinook total -- and both (!) have a sweet smoothness that really bug me. I fermented them at 64F -- both went from about 1.065 or so to 1.010 give or take, so they're okay gravity-wise, but I can definitely detect the crystal.

Next spring when I start brewing again (had to pack it up for the Chicago winter), I plan to go the Nogne 100 route -- big, strong beer, big hops -- but zero crystal. Plus, I plan to do a couple of additional things: (a) add 1 tsp of gypsum to the boil to bring out a bit more of the hops and (b) do a longer string of late addition hops (instead of 60/10/2, I plan to go with 60/20/15/10/5/2/0).

I realize there's all kinds of variables here -- both for the OP and my brief description here -- but I'm really bumming in my ill-fated IPAs (the last brews of my season).

Would .25 crystal bring out the flavor but reduce the "there's crystal in here" sweetness?

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I'm not a fan of crystal in many IPAs, but other people like them. Staying under 8% or thereabouts is a good idea usually. However, I didn't read this beer as an IPA! For an American amber, you could go to 20% crystal if you want. It really depends on the style of beer you're making.

I have an IPA recipe posted here on the forum that uses NO crystal malt, and I like it that way! Take a look at it (it's called DFH 60 minute clone, under my avatar) and see what I mean.

I don't recommend adding gypsum (or other salts) if you don't know your water chemistry. Late addition of hops is great in an IPA.

Thanks, Yooper.

re: gypsum

I'm working off Palmer's spreadsheet based on my city's water report (Lake Michigan water essentially) -- but the report is two years old (city engineer doesn't yet have an updated report -- go figure) -- so the gypsum is going to be an experiment for the boil. My mash is fine (pH is in the 5 range based on test strips) so I'm thinking a tsp of gypsum might help fight the "smoothness" I get in my IPAs -- and by adding it to the boil much like what Denny does with his Rye IPA -- I might find a subtle (or not-so-subtle) way to knock back the smoothness of my IPAs a bit and make them just slightly more jarring. I often get the compliment that "I don't like IPAs, but I love yours" -- which I've come to understand means that my IPAs lack the chalky bitterness of what I like in IPA (I especially like Smuttynose for this). A bit more oomph -- and not just up front malt and a hoppy aroma (which is fine -- but not what I want in my beers).

I realize, too, it might be my yeast -- I used Safale-05 all last year -- so I plan to try the new Greenbelt yeast and see if that, too, might help.

At any rate -- I don't mean to hijack the thread. I just noticed the OP's recipe and the basemalt versus crystal amount -- and wanted to chime in. I'll definitely try your no-crystal recipe for an IPA. I suspect my first few spring beers will be crystal-less IPAs.

hotbrew said:

Having done a few brews with ginger, I highly suggest going easy with it. Are you using freshly ground ginger? Or just the dried ginger powder? Don't ever use more than 1 tsp of ginger powder for 5 gal batch unless you're going for a purely ginger beer. I believe fresh ginger imparts a stronger flavor so I wouldn't recommend more than 3/4 tsp or even half tsp.

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Per suggestion of Charlie P.'s writings, I was planning to buy a fresh ginger root at the store, grate it on a cheese grater, and toss 1 oz at the most in. He said 1 oz. would add considerable character...and I just wanted a hint, so maybe I will trim that down a bit...

I'm still moderately ignorant in all of the points I've brought up, so I readily stand waiting to be corrected on anything I say!

Frodo said:

http://makingyourownbeer.com/homebrew-recipes/i-am-mental-1789257.html

I found that discussion. It's tough to muddle through... guess the main point re: crystal malts was that amylase enzymes "can break down the more complex crystal malt sugars leaving the beer lacking in body". They also mention adding dark grains at sparge to prevent astringency.

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Hmm...perhaps I'll add half the crystal during mash, and half at the sparge? Best of both worlds perhaps...

aggiejay06 said:

Hmm...perhaps I'll add half the crystal during mash, and half at the sparge? Best of both worlds perhaps...

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I really wouldn't complicate it unnecessarily... the general practice is just to add all grains to the mash. At least that way it'll be repeatable, which is important in brewing.

You can add the honey after the wort has cooled. Seems odd, but honey doesn't support wild yeasts. This is how to get the most aroma out of honey when doing a mead. Don't know how much of difference it would make as a small part of a beer though.

Frodo said:

I really wouldn't complicate it unnecessarily... the general practice is just to add all grains to the mash. At least that way it'll be repeatable, which is important in brewing.

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I concur. I'm not changing my practice to something that no one seems to do for what can only be a minor advantage. I figure I'll just bump up my % of crystal if I'm not getting the character I want out of them. Case closed.