Talk me down!

Over the past seven days I've brew three batches of beer (my third, fourth and fifth batch to be precise), and I think I need to pause for a bit. Or at least
until I know I can make drinkable beer.

You see, my first batch isn't quite drinkable despite ~6 weeks in the bottle (it's pretty flat and tasteless). My second batch seems to be getting worse as it conditions - its only been conditioning for two weeks, but I cracked a bottle at week one to check on carbonation level and found it to be pretty decent; I opened another to tonight and found it to have a strong soapy flavor.

So, as of now I have 5gals o Wheat (the flat one) in bottles; 5 gals of IPA (the soapy one) in bottles; 5 gals of a saison 1 week into fermentation; 1 gallon of Belgian Wit 5 days in, and 2.5 gals of ESB just brewed.

I've been a bit concerned about fermentation temps - the fermometer has gotten close to 76• F on occasion...
O
So, should I stop until I know I can make a good beer? I have the ESB fermentor sitting in a bucket of cool (~64•F) water.

Any advice would be welcome.

Don't do it man it's not worth it!

I was going to recommend a swamp cooler until I read the 2nd to last sentence.

Maybe you could slow down since you have a pipeline going and start working on planning a BIG beer. A big Belgian could ferment in the summer time temps and be ready for Spanksgiving/X-mas.

maybe do half batches? 2.5gals at a time you can practice twice as much.

Get yourself a used chest freezer and a Temp controller. After Sanitation Temp controll is the most important thing. You wont be sorry you make the investment.

Do a flip!

My first two batches were drinkable, but nothing special. Then I got a chest freezer and temp controller. Huge difference. Then I did a full boil extract on a whim, best beer I had done up to that time. My first all grain with a yeast starter in my fermentaion chamber made me a believer. Fermentation temp control + full boil = great beer. A chamber and a decent 11 gallon boil pot are one time investments that will pay for themselves time and time again when you knock a batch out of the park. And don't be intimidated by starters. They seriously take 20 min to make, and 10 minutes of that is the boil... I use a 1 gallon carboy that doubles as my cider experiment fermenter. No fancy glassware or stir plate necissary.

Check your water. It may have Chlorine or Chloramine. What sanitizer are you using? Some of them need to be rinsed well.

You definitely should try to keep the temps at around mid 60's for Ales, except for that Saison, of course, which you could let run up into the 90's.

But it sounds like your temperature it not excessive in general. The main time to be concerned is during the initial hard and fast fermentation. After that it wont' hurt to let it get up into the 70s for a short time.

I can't in good conscience suggest you slow down. What I would advise is careful consideration of each step of your process and investigate the common accepted best practices. There is no shortage of information online on how to make good beer. There are certainly things that are debated, but in almost all cases there is a solid reasoning behind them, and the differences between them are usually so minute as to being a simple matter of preference.

I'd find out about your water first. You can ask your local water commission, or just send a sample of your water to Ward Labs. You are mostly concerned with any treatment chemicals, but if you are sending to Ward Labs, a mineral analysis is very handy to give you an idea if you need to do any treatment for certain styles.

soapy flavors... flat beer .... 76&bull temps ..... not to discourage your enthusiasm which is great but I think you need too look at your process a bit more as those are biggies you mentioned that need to be addressed. a few things make sure your sanitization is great not ok or good but great. second invest the money you would spend on a batch on software like beersmith as it will help you with your brewday / calcs so you know your making a proper recipe. Third invest in temp control or a wort chiller or something cause the only beer above you mentioned that should get up to 76 degrees is that saison. also your off flavors can be from underpitching your yeast so maybe a flask and a stirplate shoul.d be considered as well as looking at a pitching rate calculator such as mr.malty. I know your excited to brew but do it correctly and you will love the beer that you make.

Is this extract or grain batches?

1. Tell us your sanitation method
2. Tell us your water source and any treatment you do

wherestheyeast said:

Over the past seven days I've brew three batches of beer (my third, fourth and fifth batch to be precise), and I think I need to pause for a bit. Or at least
until I know I can make drinkable beer.

You see, my first batch isn't quite drinkable despite ~6 weeks in the bottle (it's pretty flat and tasteless). My second batch seems to be getting worse as it conditions - its only been conditioning for two weeks, but I cracked a bottle at week one to check on carbonation level and found it to be pretty decent; I opened another to tonight and found it to have a strong soapy flavor.

So, as of now I have 5gals o Wheat (the flat one) in bottles; 5 gals of IPA (the soapy one) in bottles; 5 gals of a saison 1 week into fermentation; 1 gallon of Belgian Wit 5 days in, and 2.5 gals of ESB just brewed.

I've been a bit concerned about fermentation temps - the fermometer has gotten close to 76• F on occasion...
O
So, should I stop until I know I can make a good beer? I have the ESB fermentor sitting in a bucket of cool (~64•F) water.

Any advice would be welcome.

Click to expand...

don't stop, reflect.
some batches do get the "two week nasty " and get stellar after a month.

Make a batch of something simple and well known, a boring pale/amber ale.
baby it, bang out every step as best you can. You're worried about temps so concentrate on those steps.
treat this one as your "1st batch"
Put your currently bottled stuff away and focus on the new 1st.
when its done and ready to drink compare it to your questionable batches. They at least will have one know factor, aging.

Glass/buckets/secondary/no secondary. none of it matters it's all style.
focus on your technique, what works best in your kitchen, your time, your storage space.

Thanks to all for the comments. Here are some random thoughts on things mentioned.

Here is a copy of my water report:
http://www.hopsandberries.com/faq/2010 Water Quality Annual Summary KE08Feb11.pdf

I use tap water for everything, with the exception of top-off when needed -- I then use water from my two-stage undersink filter/dispenser system (usually no more than 1 gallon). Last night, however I used filtered water for steeping/boiling.

I've tried to do full boils on all batches, but I haven't been able to nail down the boil off amount, usually have to top off ~1 gallon.

My brew days have involved everything being soaked in a warm PBW solution, rinsed with my hot water, and a soak in warm starsan solution (1oz in 5 gallons). My 6.5gal carboy gets rinsed with JET bottle washer after PBW/carboy brush wash, before filling with starsan & shaking. I use this same process at the end of each brew day (carboy gets thoroughly cleaned after emptying in the same manner as before).

Last night my brew process for 2.5 gallon ESB was pretty typical (scaled):
Steep:
- 6 oz Amber Malt
- 2 oz Light Crystal Malt
in 2 quarts of ~155F for 30 minutes.

Drained, then rinsed with 1/4 gallon ~160F water.
Poured this wort into 10 quarts of ~160F water.
Brought to boil, removed from burner.
Added approx half of the LME (2.25 lbs Amber LME & 1.5 lbs Light LME was total for recipe).
Returned to boil.
Added 1/2oz challenger hops
At 35 minutes
Added 1/2oz challenger hops
At 45 minutes
Added remainder of LME, 1 tsp irish moss & placed wort chiller in the wort for sanitation
At 55 minutes
Added 1/2oz Willamette hops
At 60 minutes flameout
Chilled wort to ~75F
Strained wort into bucket, then dumped wort into 3 gall better bottle (that was cleaned/sanitized using above process). Had to add about 1/2 gallon of filtered water to bring to 2.5 gallons. Shook like crazy to aerate. Took hydrometer reading (1.042). Pitched entire Wyeast 1968 London ESB Smack Pack (fully inflated).
Capped with airlock filled with starsan and placed fermenter in a 5 gallon bucket filled with ~62F water.
12 Hours later fermentation seems to be slowly starting (getting small amount of krausen) and water temp in the "ice bath" is at 68F.

OOps -- forgot to mention that the remainder of LME was added when burners were off. Also, I stirred about every 5minutes throughout the boil.

I have a questions about chest freezer/temp controller -- do they work well at higher (ale fermentation temps ~62-70F). I would guess it'd only work when ambient temp is above that temp. How much temp difference is there between the air temp and the wort/beer temp? Would you have the temp probe in the beer/wort?

Hey,
When i started temp control was the single best thing that happened to me beers when i started. The next best thing was patience.

HopZ

Bump for temp controller question....

wherestheyeast said:

I have a questions about chest freezer/temp controller -- do they work well at higher (ale fermentation temps ~62-70F). I would guess it'd only work when ambient temp is above that temp. How much temp difference is there between the air temp and the wort/beer temp? Would you have the temp probe in the beer/wort?

Click to expand...

They work fine at all temps - tape the probe to the side of the carboy, cover with foam, then your device (freezer, fridge) will run until the wort, not air temp, is closer to the desired number.

if it's winter and things are colder, you can have a lightbulb turn on and off inside the fermenting cabinet instead of having the compressor run.
Two stage controllers will allow both - fridge comes on when needed, heat comes on when needed - you just set the desired ranges.

The difference between ambient and actively fermenting wort can be 10F (which is why you tape the probe to the side of the fermenter)

Just took a bottle of the wheat and a bottle of the IPA to LHBS. After a conversation about my process they gave some of the advice here (cooler fermentation temps) AND the soapy flavor from the IPA is probably from a combination of warm fermentation temps, soft water and long dry hop time.

Thought I'd share...

Also, on the advice of some of you here I am going to do a 2.5 gallon batch of an extract pale and really try to focus on each step - especially fermentation temps...

Okay, so i'm going to be "That guy" i suppose....

Why were you brewing 3 times in a week, on drastically different recipes, WHEN STARTING?

It simply doesn't make any logical sense. For me, when starting (and still, because i'm still a new brewer with less than 10 batches under my belt and a year of experience) it only makes sense to make a brew just often enough to always have beer. this means maybe once a month at most. When i first started, i wouldn't brew again until I'd tasted and made a good assessment of the previous batch. I also have made sure to brew very similar beers- this means that, as i make assessment, i can make corrections to try and better the results.

I think you should stop brewing until all your current batches are ready to be drank, then, have a few. Assess them. Wait a few days. Drink a few more and re-assess them. keep doing this till you're starting to run low on beer. All the while, you're doing research on how to correct the issues you're noting. THEN brew again. Put into action all the corrective steps you've researched.

What you're doing could be likened to a guy shooting a rifle at a target he can barely see- he shoots a few shots but can't tell where they hit. So he just keeps shooting, all the while, aiming at the same point because he doesn't know any better. When he retrieves his target, he finds all his shots have missed the bullseye and are grouped in one location. If he had only stopped to check where he was hitting sooner, the last shots could have been corrected.

What he said.

paparker21 said:

Okay, so i'm going to be "That guy" i suppose....

Why were you brewing 3 times in a week, on drastically different recipes, WHEN STARTING?

It simply doesn't make any logical sense. For me, when starting (and still, because i'm still a new brewer with less than 10 batches under my belt and a year of experience) it only makes sense to make a brew just often enough to always have beer. this means maybe once a month at most. When i first started, i wouldn't brew again until I'd tasted and made a good assessment of the previous batch. I also have made sure to brew very similar beers- this means that, as i make assessment, i can make corrections to try and better the results.

I think you should stop brewing until all your current batches are ready to be drank, then, have a few. Assess them. Wait a few days. Drink a few more and re-assess them. keep doing this till you're starting to run low on beer. All the while, you're doing research on how to correct the issues you're noting. THEN brew again. Put into action all the corrective steps you've researched.

What you're doing could be likened to a guy shooting a rifle at a target he can barely see- he shoots a few shots but can't tell where they hit. So he just keeps shooting, all the while, aiming at the same point because he doesn't know any better. When he retrieves his target, he finds all his shots have missed the bullseye and are grouped in one location. If he had only stopped to check where he was hitting sooner, the last shots could have been corrected.

Click to expand...

Well said!

I love a good analogy! I agree with your point(s) - in fact your suggestion is pretty much what I wondered out-loud about to strart this topic.

I tend to get bored pretty easily, and even though it wasn't in my original post, I'm really trying to get a feel for the process. Some extra time + a bit obsessed = a lot of experimenting. My hope has been to learn the process (and my mistakes) quickly to shorten the learning curve (I learn more by doing). And I have discovered my mistakes, and have learned from them; as well as the conditions by which I brew/ferment.

But, I don't really think your analogy fits. I feel there is a difference between a hobby where the experts suggest a MINIMUM wait of six weeks (three primary three bottle) to see results and make corrections for next time with something that has an instant feedback/correction loop. Homebrewing, while not jigsaw puzzling, is a pretty low stakes hobby!

So my first two batches didn't turn out. I feel I now understand why and believe most of those issues where acknowleged in batches 3, 4 and5. I look forward to having a nice variety of good beers in a few weeks. Or I'll have crap-in-a-bottle and have hopefully learned more about my process and conditions.

In the mean time I'll continue to look for guidance on all things homebrewing. While trying not to overeducate myself on the many, many different ways of doing things (time to revert back to K.I.S.S)!

Sure, there are definite things that vary from the analogy to homebrewing. And, if you've got the disposable income to risk your batches, then more power to you! I simply couldn't afford to brew as often as you're indicating-- if you can, then you're spot on- you absolutely will get more experience and fine tune your process much more quickly! Just be careful not to reinforce any bad habits.