Sparging too fast (not too long) introduces tannins?

Assuming:

A) I get great efficiency (75%+) in my mash tun

B) I've never stuck a sparge in my mash tun

C) I've never sparged past 2 degrees Plato (1.008)

Can I sparge too fast?

I've told a couple of brewers recently that I fly sparge for 15 minutes (7 gallons of wort) with 75% efficiency and literally had jaw-dropping reactions. One brewer cautioned that sparging too fast (not just too long) would risk leaching tannins into the beer. But as long as my gravity (and thus Ph, which I control in the mash with 5.2 Stabilizer anyway) does not drop too low, I should be fine, right?

Never heard that said about fly sparging, but if you are fly sparging that fast, you sure are getting channeling, which is cutting down your efficiency.
Also, if you are sparging down to 2 plato ( I keep mine at 3 plato with < 6 pH ) you will risk extracting astringency due to low pH value with diluted wort.

With 75% and better efficiency, I don't feel that channeling is an issue for me to worry about.

And I should clarify.. I don't sparge down to 2 degrees, I sparge to 7 gallons. I've never actually gone past 4 that I know of. I was simply trying to point out that I shouldn't have to worry about tannin extraction from pH.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hasn't heard that sparging too fast will extract tannins!

Sopor42 said:

One brewer cautioned that sparging too fast (not just too long) would risk leaching tannins into the beer. But as long as my gravity (and thus Ph, which I control in the mash with 5.2 Stabilizer anyway) does not drop too low, I should be fine, right?

Click to expand...

Yes, I don't know how sparging quickly would extract more tannins. But perhaps a more scientifically-oriented brewer will come along with an explanation.

Pappers said:

Yes, I don't know how sparging quickly would extract more tannins. But perhaps a more scientifically-oriented brewer will come along with an explanation.

Click to expand...

I batch sparge which is a bit more forgiving regarding having to keep watch on pH values during a sparge. And batch sparging means that I run off my wort as fast as I can get it out of the tun. I, like a great number of batch spargers, never get issues with sparging astringency due to tannins when we keep our grain bed temperatures less than 168*f.

If your assumptions are correct, then you shouldn't have a tannin extraction problem.
Have you ever checked your assumptions? and what sort of brewhouse efficiency do you end up with?

-a.

Yes, my assumptions are based on my actual numbers. Efficiencies are consistently 75% or slightly better, and thanks to my refractometer I know I'm not sparging too long as to end with less than 2 degrees plato.

Thanks everybody, I was pretty sure I wasn't risking anything but a stuck sparge by flying fast. *knock on wood*

Can you taste tannins?

If not, you probably don't have an issue.

Sopor42 said:

Assuming:

A) I get great efficiency (75%+) in my mash tun

B) I've never stuck a sparge in my mash tun

C) I've never sparged past 2 degrees Plato (1.008)

Can I sparge too fast?

I've told a couple of brewers recently that I fly sparge for 15 minutes (7 gallons of wort) with 75% efficiency and literally had jaw-dropping reactions. One brewer cautioned that sparging too fast (not just too long) would risk leaching tannins into the beer. But as long as my gravity (and thus Ph, which I control in the mash with 5.2 Stabilizer anyway) does not drop too low, I should be fine, right?

Click to expand...

I have had similar, if not the exact same results from my setup and was worried that my sparging was too fast. Having heard people talk about fly sparging for an hour!!

As far as results, no issues with the final product.

Well, the question is, do you like your efficiency, and do you actually get tannins in your beer? (ok, that's 2 questions. We're having a special today.)

It may be possible that if you are channeling, then the tannins may be leeching in the channels, just as if you over-sparge, right?

What's the pH and temperature of your sparge water? If your temp is over 180°F and the pH over 8.0, that could result in tannin extraction regardless of how quick you sparge. However, with more "normal" temperature and pH, I don't see how you would have a problem with tannins.

I think the whole long fly-sparge idea is not a necessity depending on the set-up and water pH. I fly-sparge 14-15 gallons in ~30 min, get 88-92% efficiency (depending on the beer) and don't have a problem with tannins. My water pH is 5.7 and I use a technique I've dubbed Limited Controlled Random Channeling... IOW, I hold the tubing from the HLT and let it randomly release the water all over the mash bed. This causes channeling to initiate everywhere on the mash bed, but not go down through the whole mash in any specific place for any length of time. This essentially speeds up the downward movement of extract and allows for a fast fly-sparge with the same results as a slow one.

Well I don't know the pH of my sparge water, but it's definitely not above 180°F.

You have quite an interesting sparge method Menschmaschine! Are you an engineer of some sort perhaps?

Sopor42 said:

Well I don't know the pH of my sparge water, but it's definitely not above 180°F.

You have quite an interesting sparge method Menschmaschine! Are you an engineer of some sort perhaps?

Click to expand...

Not an engineer by definition, but I have a science and mechanical background. That doesn't really have anything to do with my sparge technique though. That sort of happened by accident. When I built my system, it just seemed like the cheapest and easiest way to get started. I wanted to fly-sparge and instead of building a manifold, I figured using the tubing to sprinkle on the sparge water would serve the purpose until I got around to building the manifold.

When I started brewing, I did slow fly-sparges... like 60 to 90 min. Then, I started to shorten the time up because that was a long time to sit there sprinkling the tubing over the grain bed. I noticed my efficiency didn't go down at all. Then one day I just tried it with the MLT valve open full-bore and completed the sparge in 30 min. My efficiency was still high.

So, I theorized or figured out it was because the technique just increased the speed of the push of wort downward in the MLT, yet still achieved it in a uniform fashion over the surface area of the grain bed. It worked out well for me because I figure it would take the same amount of time (30 min.) or longer to do a double batch sparge.

I'm not the only on here who does this... I believe Boerderij Kabouter does this also.

If sparging too fast extracted tannins, wouldn't batch sparging extract tannins. Isn't that what you do with batch sparging. Open up full bore till it's empty, fill it again and do the same thing? If it meant tannin extraction, nobody would batch sparge.