meddin
Well-Known Member
Ok. NOW can we have our group hug? 
Why Not to Pitch On Your Yeast Cake
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SkiSoloII
Splitting the beer atom since 1996
If this is already in the lengthy tread, I apologize in advance, and someone please point me to the page....
I did a 12 gallon batch of English IPA. 2 fermenters - 1 with Safale S-05 (I know, it's American), and 1/2 with Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley. The Safale gave me a huge, campacted yeast cake I could scoop out with a steam shovel - I got large amounts of "slurry." The 1275 had a shallow cake, it was watery/runny - couldn't have been 1/4 the slurry of the S-05. I assume that the cell count would be lower with the 1275 due to the volume I had.
OG was 1.062, FG for both was 1.013.
I'd be willing to pitch on the 1275 yeast cake, but not on the S-05 due to this discussion. Does that make sense?
Dave
I did a 12 gallon batch of English IPA. 2 fermenters - 1 with Safale S-05 (I know, it's American), and 1/2 with Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley. The Safale gave me a huge, campacted yeast cake I could scoop out with a steam shovel - I got large amounts of "slurry." The 1275 had a shallow cake, it was watery/runny - couldn't have been 1/4 the slurry of the S-05. I assume that the cell count would be lower with the 1275 due to the volume I had.
OG was 1.062, FG for both was 1.013.
I'd be willing to pitch on the 1275 yeast cake, but not on the S-05 due to this discussion. Does that make sense?
Dave
Doc Robinson
Well-Known Member
OP
OP
Bob
Well-Known Member
There was some discussion about the relative physical characteristics of different strains. I pointed out exactly what you discovered: Different strains result in different slurries. In my experience, less-flocculent ("powdery") strains tend to collect in a much more runny slurry - like runny pancake batter - than more-flocculent strains - like pancake batter after a few seconds of cooking.
Assuming the cell count is lower because of consistency is unwise. Of course, the only way to really know a cell count or viability is through microscopy. But it's safe to operate under the assumption that both slurries contain a like amount of yeast.
If you notice, the more abundant slurry is also lighter and less dense than the runny slurry. This is one reason why the professional Rule of Thumb is to pitch by weight, not volume.
Make sense?
I want to use that as a userpic. Somewhere.
Bob
Synovia
Well-Known Member
Ya know, I've tried to stay out of this after that first post I made, but I've gotta speak up now....what is the purpose of _any_ of the practices we use in brewing? It's to make good beer, right? So, if somebody can make good beer using practices that aren't "industry standard", what's more important? The practice or the outcome? I have a certain perspective on this after more than 10 years of championing batch sparging. When I first started speaking about I heard many arguments similar to this. "You can't do that". "It makes dirty beer". And my favorite, "If it's so good, why don't commercial breweries do it?". But as I and thousands of others have found, it DOES work and it DOES make great beer. And it does both of those despite the fact that it's not an "industry standard practice".
Now, before going further, let me state that I basically agree with Bob's original premise. Through my own testing and experimentation, I many years ago decided that I got better results by not using an entire slurry from a previous batch. After trying different approaches, I made up my own mind based on my own results, not what I had read or what other brewers , home or commercial, were doing. And AFAIAC, that's the way it should be for ANY methods we use in our home breweries. AFAIAC, every homebrewer who's passionate about the hobby owes it to him/herself to study and research any information on a topic that's available to them (such as Bob's OP), weight the facts presented, them try it and make up their own minds. Again, in spite of the fact that I basically agree with Bob's premise, I've just had too many good beers that have been pitched on a full slurry from too many people to blanket write off the practice.
Maybe it's time to keep the "Pragmatic Principle" in mind, along with its corollary...
Pragmatic
Make the best beer possible
While having the most fun possible
While doing the least work possible
Corollary
Do whatever it takes to make better beer
BUT
Make sure the effort you take yields results that are worth the effort!
I agree with this 100%. But something that has to be kept in mind is that it easy to say "I am making great beer, so what I am doing must be right" and using this fact to stop yourself from doing relatively easy things to make even better beer.
At the same time, you should not blindly do things that are supposed to make your beer better without being objective about the results.
Blanda
Active Member
Hi, I was not going to post because the OP was discouraging in this aspect. But is very sad to see how you confuse new and/or amateur brewers.
It's not a bad practice to pitch on your yeast cake, you can tell me there are better practices and I'll agree with you, but like any other practice if you do it well, you have great results.
I can´t give a science background on this, but I can tell you that I had a couple of my brews with some friends (2 of them are BJCP judges). And they were very pleased by the brew and even more surprised when they knew that the kölsch they enjoy that much was the third on a series of four batches on the same yeast. This third one, was a lot better than the first one.
It's true, I can´t tell you why. You don't accept the "it works for me". So I'll tell that in my experience it's a great practice with great results.
You have said "Brewers and brewing scientists far more experienced than either you or I disagree. Guess who I'm going to agree with?"
Well, if I intend to agree with them I wouldn't be doing my own brew!
Cheers.
PS: Sorry for my ****ty english, I'm from Argentina.
It's not a bad practice to pitch on your yeast cake, you can tell me there are better practices and I'll agree with you, but like any other practice if you do it well, you have great results.
I can´t give a science background on this, but I can tell you that I had a couple of my brews with some friends (2 of them are BJCP judges). And they were very pleased by the brew and even more surprised when they knew that the kölsch they enjoy that much was the third on a series of four batches on the same yeast. This third one, was a lot better than the first one.
It's true, I can´t tell you why. You don't accept the "it works for me". So I'll tell that in my experience it's a great practice with great results.
You have said "Brewers and brewing scientists far more experienced than either you or I disagree. Guess who I'm going to agree with?"
Well, if I intend to agree with them I wouldn't be doing my own brew!
Cheers.
PS: Sorry for my ****ty english, I'm from Argentina.
Bob-
While I don't argue your point, your at times your arguement kinda stinks of, "Standard practice is xxx because it is the best way to do it. It's the best way to do it because it's standard practice".
Cheers
While I don't argue your point, your at times your arguement kinda stinks of, "Standard practice is xxx because it is the best way to do it. It's the best way to do it because it's standard practice".
Cheers
Ok. NOW can we have our group hug?
I have been waiting with my arms open since page 9. To be honest, it is starting to feel a little awkward.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Huuuuuuuuuuuuuug!!!!
There's probably a better way to say that, or do you want the argumentative portion of the thread to continue?
So I realize that this is pitching on a yeast cake, and pardon me if this has been asked, but can the negative effects you listed occur when using a dry yeast packet?
For example, I brewed a 3 gallon porter, at 1.06, the yeast calculators come out to using 6/10 of a 11.5 g packet. If you pitch the full 11.5 g, will it lead to effects you have discussed?
For example, I brewed a 3 gallon porter, at 1.06, the yeast calculators come out to using 6/10 of a 11.5 g packet. If you pitch the full 11.5 g, will it lead to effects you have discussed?
mojotele
Well-Known Member
My educated guess is that any negative effects wouldn't be noticeable.
You know how much you pitched, though. If you ever try the beer again, you can pitch the suggested amount and see if there is a difference yourself! That's what this thread was supposed to be about.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
remilard
Well-Known Member
Fix was assuming that hot break and hops never went in the fermenter, and was probably also coming from a commercial perspective where cold break is dumped out the bottom of a conical.
Jamil's calculator lets you adjust for the fact that a lot of homebrewers have much more non yeast material than a commercial slurry or George Fix's home slurry.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
I don't think I was clear...Fix is saying 25% yeast and JZ lets you choose 75-100% yeast because the description above the 0-25 slider is "Non-Yeast Percentage". These seem very different.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
It looks like it's just opposite of that though. The OP says that Fix claims ~75% non-yeast solids and the Mr Malty PRC has 25% as the MAX amount of non-yeast solids.
Dstar,
I was also kind of struggling to combine the things said in the OP with the PRC. The OP says that if you have some settled yeast from a previous fermentation that a good approximation is that you have 1 billion viable yeast cells per mL. But when you go to the Mr Malty PRC the 'Yeast Concentation' slider goes from 1 billion/mL MINIMUM up to 4.5 billion/mL and the 'Non-yeast percentage' goes from 0% to 25% MAXIMUM. Then you have to adjust the 'viability'. So there's several things to adjust and we're just guessing at all of them. But the 1 billion/mL was sort of a 'hard number' from the OP so in order to make it more simple I just put the 'Yeast Concentration' at 1 billion/mL and the 'Non-yeast percentage' to 0%, and then adjust the viability based on how old it is. I actually did two brews this past weekend doing this, in both cases (1 ale, 1 lager) it was more yeast slurry than I had been calculating in the past (almost double).
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
For JZ's PRC using the slurry tab, keep all the sliders at the default. He says on average, it describes non-washed harvested yeast that has sit in the fridge for 1 week, the settled portion.
If you don't have enough slurry, there is a process in the calculator to figure out the starter size needed from the slurry you have:
Lets say you have 200 mL of slurry that is a week old.
According to his PRC, one week old is 83% viable so you effectively have 166 mL of slurry (.83*200).
Multiply that by the default yeast concentration of 2.4 billion/mL and you have 398 billion cells (166*2.4).
Take that number over to the Liquid Yeast tab. Each tube of white labs yeast has an average of 100 billion cells when it is 100% viable. That relationship makes it easy because you can take the number of viable cells in your slurry (398 billion) and pretend it's a super viable tube of white labs yeast. Uncheck the "Calculate Viability from Date" box and type in 398 for your viability. Enter the other parameters for your beer and it gives you the starter size you need to pitch your 200 mL of slurry into.
If you don't have enough slurry, there is a process in the calculator to figure out the starter size needed from the slurry you have:
Lets say you have 200 mL of slurry that is a week old.
According to his PRC, one week old is 83% viable so you effectively have 166 mL of slurry (.83*200).
Multiply that by the default yeast concentration of 2.4 billion/mL and you have 398 billion cells (166*2.4).
Take that number over to the Liquid Yeast tab. Each tube of white labs yeast has an average of 100 billion cells when it is 100% viable. That relationship makes it easy because you can take the number of viable cells in your slurry (398 billion) and pretend it's a super viable tube of white labs yeast. Uncheck the "Calculate Viability from Date" box and type in 398 for your viability. Enter the other parameters for your beer and it gives you the starter size you need to pitch your 200 mL of slurry into.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Then that would be 2.4 billion/mL and 10% non-yeast solids. That still looks like it's different than the 1 billion/mL that the OP mentioned (about double). That's prob why I ended up pitching about double the yeast (going from the OP's number) than I usually do when using the PRC.
Hey, I thought that 'use the percent viability slider to dictate your starting yeast count' was my idea! Been doing that for a while now.
TBH, the most difficult thing for me to nail down is: If I have a known volume of settled yeast, what cell count am I starting with? I've asked this question and seen other's ask it and if you get answers they are all over the place. Since the OP has had it tested and they averaged 1 billion/mL it seems easiest to just set the slider to 1 billion/mL and put the non-yeast at 0%. My yeast is always washed so I thought it would be similar to that which is pulled from the cone. Still, the dilemma for me is that I can't get the PRC and the OP's numbers to agree. Seems like they differ by almost a factor of 2.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
Hey, I thought that 'use the percent viability slider to dictate your starting yeast count' was my idea! Been doing that for a while now.
I just figured that out a few weeks ago so you beat me to it
It was driving me nuts that I didn't have enough slurry from a 6 gallon batch of Munich Dunkel to re-pitch into a 10 gallon batch of Dopplebock. After playing with the calculator for hours, it made sense that it could tell me a starter size for a slurry size in a backwards kind of way. I was nervous about the volume of yeast that starter made but after reading the OP saying it can be 1/4 the volume of harvested and settled yeast, I felt better. Looks like it's time for a microscope and hemocytometer for some real answers.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH yea??? I curently wash yeast but im ready to rack off a cream ale and brew a pale ale,i've never racked onto a cake but was seriously thinking of trying it since brew day finally lined up with keg day.After reading 8,000 posts on this thead should i dump half the slurry????Will the trub F*** with the pale ale?????Should i wash the yeast and brew some other day?????Like i said i usually was my yeast do a starter, im not lazy but this is the first time i can keg and rack onto a cake the same day.After spending 5 hours reading this thead i think ill just quit brewing!!! JK any thoughts anyone
JK any thoughts anyonescottlindner
Well-Known Member
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH yea??? I curently wash yeast but im ready to rack off a cream ale and brew a pale ale,i've never racked onto a cake but was seriously thinking of trying it since brew day finally lined up with keg day.After reading 8,000 posts on this thead should i dump half the slurry????Will the trub F*** with the pale ale?????Should i wash the yeast and brew some other day?????Like i said i usually was my yeast do a starter, im not lazy but this is the first time i can keg and rack onto a cake the same day.After spending 5 hours reading this thead i think ill just quit brewing!!!
It sounds like the real question is if you should wait to brew. That's really up to you. If you are concerned about some of the details in this thread then you should wash and brew later. If you believe you can brew an awesome brew by using your active yeast cake, then brew today. There's no harm in scooping out some of the cake since you'll still have plenty of yeasties working for you and you don't risk over pitching.
If you don't care about the risks of less than perfect brew but still is very tasty, I'd love to see what happens if you use the yeast cake but take some extra out. It sounds like you normally wash your yeast which I believe means you normally make starters as well? I'm curious how you'll enjoy a brew made using an entirely different process for you. That is, if you're willing.
Either way, you'll have beer. Enjoy the brew day!
Scott
Scott the real info i was looking for before i was sucked into reading this crazy thead was 1 is the excess gunk detrimental to a fresh brew 2 im not lazy but racking onto an active cake seems like no brainer minus the pitching rate THING. A carboy with the beer just racked off in my eyes is really sanitery considering it was just full of alchol&C02 even if it looks like an elephant just took a dump in it!! I read the whole thead and found no info on yeast crud affecting newer wort.I cant scoop out excess yeast because i use a glass carboy but i can swirl it and dump some would u recomend this scott ??
scottlindner
Well-Known Member
If I were in your situation, I'd just use the entire cake and not worry about it. I've done it a few times before with the entire cake and haven't ever noticed anything detrimental.
Scott
Thats what i figured i've been brewing for about 5 years and never tried it cause i never had a brew day line up like this so i figured id try it i like to experement when i homebrew but i always try to research stuff u probably know what i mean after all my names not Adolphis Bush thanks for the advice ,and when all else fails RDWHAHB its all about the fun of it <at least to me & u>
EO
i like to experement when i homebrew but i always try to research stuff u probably know what i mean after all my names not Adolphis Bush thanks for the advice ,and when all else fails RDWHAHB its all about the fun of it <at least to me & u> EO
scottlindner
Well-Known Member
Thats what i figured i've been brewing for about 5 years and never tried it cause i never had a brew day line up like this so i figured id try it
EO
Bingo.....
SC_Ryan
Well-Known Member
I have a question about the viability of the yeast in the primary. So we know that the viability of a portion of harvested yeast cake drops at a rate of 25% per seven days while in cold storage. We also know that washed yeast stored the same way keeps better but to an unknown degree.
Let's say your primary fermentation conditions were optimal and your fermentation completed in 4 days. How much if any viability is lost post fermentation while the cake is sitting at the bottom of the primary? I will primary my beers for 1-3 weeks depending on my schedule.
Let's say your primary fermentation conditions were optimal and your fermentation completed in 4 days. How much if any viability is lost post fermentation while the cake is sitting at the bottom of the primary? I will primary my beers for 1-3 weeks depending on my schedule.
I did a st pattys day brew yesterday
i racked a cream ale into a keg , off a notty yeast cake poured edworts haus ale on top and it started bubbling within an hour!!!The cake was 3 weeks old and i've never tried this before,im pumped.I wash yeast all the time and reuse it a couple times before i start off fresh again but if this comes out good i'm gonna pitch on yeast cakes more often!!:rockin:
i racked a cream ale into a keg , off a notty yeast cake poured edworts haus ale on top and it started bubbling within an hour!!!The cake was 3 weeks old and i've never tried this before,im pumped.I wash yeast all the time and reuse it a couple times before i start off fresh again but if this comes out good i'm gonna pitch on yeast cakes more often!!:rockin:
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Yeast viability gone 25% every 7 days? Bullspit.
I had a 3 month old cake, dried and cracked, sprang to life with little effort and produced a great beer.
How do they produce dried yeast without destroying the delicate little dears if they are so fragile?
I love this discussion, but I think the opinions range from completely anal and careful beyond reason, to a little wreckless and careless.
Rather than carelessness or lazyness, I hate to waste the little bastards just to use some new little bastards.
I had a 3 month old cake, dried and cracked, sprang to life with little effort and produced a great beer.
How do they produce dried yeast without destroying the delicate little dears if they are so fragile?
I love this discussion, but I think the opinions range from completely anal and careful beyond reason, to a little wreckless and careless.
Rather than carelessness or lazyness, I hate to waste the little bastards just to use some new little bastards.
Hermit
fuddle
I know someone that uses them to spray on his lawn. Think about it.
scottlindner
Well-Known Member
I did a st pattys day brew yesterday
Two weeks ago I pitched onto an active yeast cake (I scooped a bunch out first) and had activity almost immediately.
I'm glad it worked so well. I'm very curious how you feel about the results when you are ready to try it.
Scott
I just bottled my Wheat Stout that I pitched from a prior batch of Wheat Stout. Tasted exactly the same as the last couple batches of it at bottling time. I pitched into Primary on top of about 1/2 the cake / trub (mini-mash extract recipe), left it for 9 days, until it was done fermenting, then to secondary for ~2 weeks before bottling. What a time/money saver, and not having to worry about washing and recreating a starter... EASY!
Just another anecdote for the pile:
I recently kegged a beer that was in primary for 5 weeks, no secondary. I planned to discard the yeast, but for some reason didn't get around to it. The carboy sat for nearly 2 weeks at about 64 F.
I realized yesterday that I didn't have a fresh pack (or slurry in the fridge) of S-04 to use for the stout I made yesterday, which is what I wanted, so I just pitched it right onto the old cake. The fermentation is quite healthy, now nearing blow-off.
I recently kegged a beer that was in primary for 5 weeks, no secondary. I planned to discard the yeast, but for some reason didn't get around to it. The carboy sat for nearly 2 weeks at about 64 F.
I realized yesterday that I didn't have a fresh pack (or slurry in the fridge) of S-04 to use for the stout I made yesterday, which is what I wanted, so I just pitched it right onto the old cake. The fermentation is quite healthy, now nearing blow-off.
I made a huge starter for a dead guy clone and let it ferment out for 2 1/2 weeks. I brewed up an arrogant bastard clone and dumped it right onto the massive yeast cake the dead guy clone left behind. I must say that it's been my best brew thus far!
While we're on the pitching rate subject, I have a question. On the liquid yeast packaging, it calls them "pitchable", yet general wisdom recommends always using a starter with liquid yeast. On the other hand, when talking about rehydrating dry yeast, people usually say to follow the directions on the package because "who knows better than they do?".
It's my understanding that when you feed yeast, the first thing they do is multiply. So the question is: does pitching the calculated proper amount of yeast result in overpitching because of the multiplication phase? How is pitching a a pack of yeast to beer different from pitching to a starter? Is this the reason the manufacturers call them pitchable?
It's my understanding that when you feed yeast, the first thing they do is multiply. So the question is: does pitching the calculated proper amount of yeast result in overpitching because of the multiplication phase? How is pitching a a pack of yeast to beer different from pitching to a starter? Is this the reason the manufacturers call them pitchable?
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Not to be a smartass, but if I spray Stone ruination on my lawn, does that make it worthless?
Not sure I understand your point.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Hee Hee!!
That sounds right, but doesn't really make sense with his original point.
That sounds right, but doesn't really make sense with his original point.
mojotele
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that no, that won't happen. How I understand it is that yeast will multiply until one of two things happen:
1. They run out of resources necessary to multiply.
2. They've reached a certain density depending on the environment.
In regards to #2, I think of it as animals reproducing only as much as their ecosystem can sustain. It's like they get to a certain point and say, "Whoah, wait a sec. If we keep multiplying they'll just be too many of us! Let's stop." I'm certain there's a much more fancy way of saying it, but that's what I've gotten from all my research.
So if you use the calculated proper amount of yeast, it should still be less than the cell count of reason #2. If you've given them enough oxygen and nutrients, they'll multiply until they hit that cell count which would not be considered overpitching.
Likewise, if you use less than the calculated proper amount of yeast then you'll need more oxygen and nutrients to get them to multiply up to that amount. At some point, it becomes difficult to supply them with enough of the necessary stuff.
I think the difference is that if you use a starter it is much more likely that they'll stop multiplying due to reason #2 rather than reason #1. The latter could result in an amount of yeast that is too low. I think they can call the packs pitchable because it will work given certain conditions. It may not work optimally in all conditions, though.
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