How wide open to batch sparge

This topic is one I have read opposite opinions on. How fast should I let my wort run out of my mash tun? I have read some say, as long as you use the correct amount of water, it shouldn't matter and that faster is almost better, baring getting a stuck sparge.
I have also been told in person from others that the slower, the better.... One person said they ran the exact same brew back to back. He said the first one he collect from the mash tun quickly (10-20 minutes) and the second batch he collected the runnings slowly (60+ minutes). He said his original gravity increased by 10 to 15 points.

My question is what is the real answer? As fast as a you want or as slow as you can?

Kevin

Hmm... do what works for you?

after vorlauf, I drain as quickly as I can. low 80's in effeciency..

Brulosopher said:

Hmm... do what works for you?

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The problem with this non-advice is that "what works for you" is likely to be the same as what works for most others. I also am interested in hearing about how others do this.

I usually spend about 30 minutes running off my double batch sparge. But I'm not aiming at a time frame - I just eyeball the trickle and go with what looks right. I probably don't have the patience to go slower - but for "10 to 15 points" I probably would!

When fly sparging one is continually introducing plain water on top of the grain, and washing down the sugars in a concentration gradient. In this, the rate of draining matters as balanced against the rate of sugar extraction from the grain bed. With batch sparging you are dissolving the available sugars in the volume of water you have introduced. In warm water the sugar concentration in the water and the grain should come to equilibrium pretty quickly. Thereafter, you can just drain off the water, because waiting any longer isn't going to change the sugar concentration. I batch sparge, and allow 10-15 minutes for equilibration before I drain wide open.

ThreeDogsNE said:

When fly sparging one is continually introducing plain water on top of the grain, and washing down the sugars in a concentration gradient. In this, the rate of draining matters as balanced against the rate of sugar extraction from the grain bed. With batch sparging you are dissolving the available sugars in the volume of water you have introduced. In warm water the sugar concentration in the water and the grain should come to equilibrium pretty quickly. Thereafter, you can just drain off the water, because waiting any longer isn't going to change the sugar concentration. I batch sparge, and allow 10-15 minutes for equilibration before I drain wide open.

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This makes sense, but, it begs the question why have a second batch if all the sugars are in concentration within 10 minutes. My thought is that there are sugars that are "hidden" in the hulls and other parts of the grain that need a double washing to get them fully dissolved into the liquid. I am a self-proclaimed newbie to grain brewing having only done 2 brews thus far, so my description is very non-scientific, but my thoughts nonetheless.

frazier said:

The problem with this non-advice is that "what works for you" is likely to be the same as what works for most others. I also am interested in hearing about how others do this.

I usually spend about 30 minutes running off my double batch sparge. But I'm not aiming at a time frame - I just eyeball the trickle and go with what looks right. I probably don't have the patience to go slower - but for "10 to 15 points" I probably would!

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I know, I know... sorry about that. Here are my numbers:

- No-sparge with a quick (full open) runoff = 62%
- Single batch sparge with quick runoff = 72%
- Single batch sparge with slow runoff = 72%
- Fly sparge (45-60 min) = 75%

Those are all averages. I keep going back to single batch sparge with quick runoff because the beer is exactly the same and it takes less effort.

I feel more noble now

kkimmes said:

This makes sense, but, it begs the question why have a second batch if all the sugars are in concentration within 10 minutes. My thought is that there are sugars that are "hidden" in the hulls and other parts of the grain that need a double washing to get them fully dissolved into the liquid. I am a self-proclaimed newbie to grain brewing having only done 2 brews thus far, so my description is very non-scientific, but my thoughts nonetheless.

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After the first sparge, the wort stuck in the grist is the same SG as the runoff. A new introduction of 0 sg water diffuses sugar out of that trapped wort. Time has nothing to do with it. Anecdotes of slow runoff efficiency gains can be attributed to incomplete conversion or too coarse of a grind.

Bobby_M said:

After the first sparge, the wort stuck in the grist is the same SG as the runoff. A new introduction of 0 sg water diffuses sugar out of that trapped wort. Time has nothing to do with it. Anecdotes of slow runoff efficiency gains can be attributed to incomplete conversion or too coarse of a grind.

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Right- and waiting for 10-15 minutes after stirring in the batch sparge water isn't helpful for efficiency anyway. The idea of batch sparging is to save time and still be efficient. If you're doing two batch sparges, then waiting 15 minutes each time and vorlaufing each time, the time savings is gone.

When you batch sparge, drain the MLT. Add the sparge water, and stir well. Then stir some more. And again- it's the stirring that is crucial here Then vorlauf and drain, wide open. That's it!

^^^Good info, I have always waited 10 mins after adding sparge water, next brew ill try to just run off after a good mix.

Also I have always tried to run off as fast as possible, but Ive gotten 2 stuck sparges because of it, using a manifold. So usually I try to shoot for something pretty slow to avoid the stuck sparge.

+1 to stirring making the big difference vs time. You are just trying to get the sugars dissolved in the water. 5 minutes of stirring does that a whole lot better just sitting there.

Does anyone batch sparge with a round cooler with a false bottom and also use a bag inside the cooler? I've been using a 10 gallon RubberMaid cooler with a false bottom, but have to vorlauf a lot to get reasonably clear wort. I found one thread where someone said he used a large grain bag inside his cooler with a false bottom and got very clear wort immediately, so I've been thinking about trying that. If I could eliminate the vorlauf on first runnings and sparge, and run wide open, it would be worth the added effort to clean the grain bag. Anyone tried this?

Or how about adding a paint strainer bag in the kettle to filter the wort from the MLT?

I suppose I could use a SS braid, but:
1. I don't know if the filtering is good enough to eliminate vorlauf
2. With my current false bottom with a tube down to 1/8 inch above the bottom of the cooler I can drain all but 1 1/2 cup of wort from my MLT. I don't think I could drain that well with a braid.

Looking to shorten my brew day a little - any good ideas are welcome.

DeafSmith said:

Does anyone batch sparge with a round cooler with a false bottom and also use a bag inside the cooler? I've been using a 10 gallon RubberMaid cooler with a false bottom, but have to vorlauf a lot to get reasonably clear wort. I found one thread where someone said he used a large grain bag inside his cooler with a false bottom and got very clear wort immediately, so I've been thinking about trying that. If I could eliminate the vorlauf on first runnings and sparge, and run wide open, it would be worth the added effort to clean the grain bag. Anyone tried this?

Or how about adding a paint strainer bag in the kettle to filter the wort from the MLT?

I suppose I could use a SS braid, but:
1. I don't know if the filtering is good enough to eliminate vorlauf
2. With my current false bottom with a tube down to 1/8 inch above the bottom of the cooler I can drain all but 1 1/2 cup of wort from my MLT. I don't think I could drain that well with a braid.

Looking to shorten my brew day a little - any good ideas are welcome.

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I use the hop spider I made to filter grains when draining into the kettle. I kind of like the grain bag idea in a the cooler (I have 10gal round Igloo). At the very least it would make cleaning the MLT a little easier.

DeafSmith said:

Does anyone batch sparge with a round cooler with a false bottom and also use a bag inside the cooler? I've been using a 10 gallon RubberMaid cooler with a false bottom, but have to vorlauf a lot to get reasonably clear wort. I found one thread where someone said he used a large grain bag inside his cooler with a false bottom and got very clear wort immediately, so I've been thinking about trying that. If I could eliminate the vorlauf on first runnings and sparge, and run wide open, it would be worth the added effort to clean the grain bag. Anyone tried this?

Or how about adding a paint strainer bag in the kettle to filter the wort from the MLT?

I suppose I could use a SS braid, but:
1. I don't know if the filtering is good enough to eliminate vorlauf
2. With my current false bottom with a tube down to 1/8 inch above the bottom of the cooler I can drain all but 1 1/2 cup of wort from my MLT. I don't think I could drain that well with a braid.

Looking to shorten my brew day a little - any good ideas are welcome.

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At the homebrewer level (speaking of batch size), a little grain in the boil kettle has no impact. I wouldn't worry too much about a "good vorlauf."

Thanks for the help. It clears things up.
Kevin

kkimmes said:

Thanks for the help. It clears things up.
Kevin

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Nice pun... intended? Ha

Intended

Just to be safe I use a grain bag over the end of my drain tube. It probably caches a few tablespoons of crud.

Also double batch sparging is unnecessary. Go with a single. It doesn't affect efficiency.

tgmartin000 said:

Just to be safe I use a grain bag over the end of my drain tube. It probably caches a few tablespoons of crud.

Also double batch sparging is unnecessary. Go with a single. It doesn't affect efficiency.

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I think folks double sparge due to volume restrictions, no?

Volume restrictions are often my reason for a double batch sparge.

I batch sparge and consistently get above 75% efficiency and formulate recipes for 75%, If I fall between 75% and 80% I'm really happy, when I hit 70-75% i'm a little disappointed but it's usually a higher gravity beer anyway. I attribute part of this to the fact that boiling outdoors on an average day I boil off 2 gallons over the course of the boil. More water = easier to absorb sugars. I've batch sparged every which way (wait 10 minutes after sparge infusion, stir after sparge infusion, Stir and wait 10 minutes, and drain almost immediately after sparge infusion) and haven't found that any of these techniques impact my efficiency.

I've settled in to stirring a little and draining immediately. My last efficiencies have been: 80.2%, 73.7%, 86.3%, 80.7%, 82.1%, 75.1%, and 78.4%. The 73.7% efficiency batch was a 1.066 SG batch that I opted to mash in my 10 gallon cooler instead of the 5 gallon. Previously I have mashed the same recipe in the 5 gallon and attained 75.1%. So it seems that the narrower and taller grain bed serve to deliver a little better efficiency.

As part of my process I check the SG of each of the batch sparge runnings with my refractometer to ensure that I do not get below about 1.015 SG because I have heard that this can extract tannins and I know that I am using 1 gallon more water than many brewers.

Brulosopher said:

I think folks double sparge due to volume restrictions, no?

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It is for me. For 10 gallon batches at least.

Gartywood said:

Volume restrictions are often my reason for a double batch sparge.

I batch sparge and consistently get above 75% efficiency and formulate recipes for 75%, If I fall between 75% and 80% I'm really happy, when I hit 70-75% i'm a little disappointed but it's usually a higher gravity beer anyway. I attribute part of this to the fact that boiling outdoors on an average day I boil off 2 gallons over the course of the boil. More water = easier to absorb sugars. I've batch sparged every which way (wait 10 minutes after sparge infusion, stir after sparge infusion, Stir and wait 10 minutes, and drain almost immediately after sparge infusion) and haven't found that any of these techniques impact my efficiency.

I've settled in to stirring a little and draining immediately. My last efficiencies have been: 80.2%, 73.7%, 86.3%, 80.7%, 82.1%, 75.1%, and 78.4%. The 73.7% efficiency batch was a 1.066 SG batch that I opted to mash in my 10 gallon cooler instead of the 5 gallon. Previously I have mashed the same recipe in the 5 gallon and attained 75.1%. So it seems that the narrower and taller grain bed serve to deliver a little better efficiency.

As part of my process I check the SG of each of the batch sparge runnings with my refractometer to ensure that I do not get below about 1.015 SG because I have heard that this can extract tannins and I know that I am using 1 gallon more water than many brewers.

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These numbers are interesting. Have you seen any other correlation between vessel geometry and efficiency? I think the drain topology may contribute as well.

Geometry is definitely important in batch sparging. Assuming your pickup is at the same height in a 5 gallon vs 10 gallon cooler, you leave about twice as much wort hiding in that dead spot.

A flat, wide geometry has been proposed for batch sparging and a taller, narrower geometry for fly sparging. In batch sparging you don't want the tall, heavy grain bed interfering with your high run-off rate. In fly sparging the tall, narrow grain bed helps reduce channeling, provides longer contact time for the descending water, and since you are running off much slower, grain bed compaction isn't very significant.

For the batch sparge analogy, think about rinsing a cup of grain, would you rather do it in a shallow Tupperware container, or a tall narrow cup?