Do I need a pump to all-grain?

My birthday, and incidentally my first year home brewing anniversary, is coming up in September. Being the good homebrewer I am, I have a huge list of things I want and my be asking for. Obviously not all of them, but a guy can dream. I am thinking about moving to all grain brewing. As I said, I will have been brewing about a year by September and recently moved from 2 gallon batches to 5. (all extract). I have done two 5 gallon batches, and I am still getting used to my new system, but its going well.

My thinking now is I want a B3 cooler system to complement my 10 gallon brewbuilt kettle. These seem to be relatively cheap options and I have heard great things about them. As I was thinking about how it would all work, I was wondering how in the world do I get the heated water into the HLT? I understand I can use gravity to get water out of it for sparging, but if it needs to be up high, so does the water that goes into it.

This brought me to the conclusion that I think I need a pump so I cant pump the hot water up into the HLT. Is there another way to do it?

Thanks!

You could also consider using the BIAB (brew in a bag) method for all grain brewing. All you need in addition to what you already have is a suitable bag to mash in. Wilserbrewer (an HBT member) makes great bags that custom fit your kettle. They last a long time. A ratchet pulley is a nice addition for easing the job of getting the bag out of the kettle at the end of the mash (Wilser sells these in combo with his bags.)

If you try BIAB, and decide you'd rather go traditional 3 vessel AG, you haven't lost much if any of your investment (many people use grain bags in a traditional MLT to aid lautering and spent grain clean up.)

Check out the BIAB AG sub-forum here.

Brew on

^ This guy knows.

I'm not a big fan of using a cooler as a HLT. Just seems like an odd way to go and I'm pretty sure it'll be a transitional piece as I can't imagine using it that way long term.

I'm also not a fan of BIAB but I would suggest that over a cooler HLT.

And $429 is WAY too much to pay for that system, imho.

10g coolers cost about $50

Ball valves cost about $12 each

a false bottom costs about $50

Odds and ends, maybe another $50 if I'm being generous.

Their sparge system is unnecessary and looks cheap.

I wouldn't pay more than $250 for that double cooler set-up, and even then I wouldn't want to use it.

Sorry for being so negative.

I did AG for a few years without the use of a pump and faired just fine. Gravity and buckets.

Get a pump, your spinal cord and non burned flesh will thank you later.

I do all grain in keggles with no pumps. The pumps would be convenient, but I do just fine without them.

I've never used a pump for AG.

I used to use a cooler HLT, but switched to batch sparging. So much easier, imho. Anyone who wants my cooler HLT can have it.

+1 to looking into BIAB. If I could do it all over again, that's the route I would have gone. I've too many damned kettles and coolers taking up too much space.

O.P. "Do I need a pump to all-grain?"

No.

Caveman system works fine.
My set up uses a cooler from "home depot", the big orange ones you see teams drenching their coaches with gatorade on TV with.
10 gallon version runs 40-50 bux. Using all components also bought at home depot you can `finish` the item.Go over to the washer/dryer dept and find their water supply line hoses,they are encased in a stainless steel braid.Hacksay the fittings off and you can remove/seperate the braided S.S. part.Get a few clamps and a "T" fitting and you loop the braid into a circle.This replaces a `false bottom` and costs under $20. Add in a ball valve for roughly 12 more and you're done.

As for needing it "high"....i personally brew outdorrs with propane.
I find that folding the tailgate of my truck down is plenty high enough.
I use my old extract kettle to collect the runnings and often have to find a box or something to elevate it a bit as i dont particularly like anything sit on the ground/floor.

You heat your strike/sparge water with your boil kettle. Just you need a kettle to hold your first runnings while your sparge water is heating up.Just re-use your extract kettle for this and you will be fine.

Pumps IMHO aren't needed for the 5 gallon batches at all ( and i have a bad back) just when you get to larger batches where the weight could make somebody with a normal back GET a bad back or when the sheer volume of `burn you badly` hot watyer/wort come into play THAT'S where you really should have a pump......just my 2 cents.

If it really needs to be that high, you can always just ladle the water with a 1 gallon measure into the the hlt. It aint glamourous, but i used to do many, many all grain batches by ladle-ing before I got a pump.

jdemshki said:

Is there another way to do it?

Thanks!

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A step ladder and the nerve to live dangerously!

You don't NEED a pump. lifting hot water above your head is inadvisable. I used to climb a step ladder with my hot sparge water in 2 to 3 batches to minimize the risk of spilling the hot and heavy water on my self. (Trying really hard to avoid a dirty joke here)

I don't have an HLT. I typically just do full volume mash/no sparge in my $30 15 gallon cooler. Brew water is heated on the propane burner to strike temp, pumped up to cooler, then gravity fed back to kettle when mash is done. If I wanted to sparge I would just gravity feed my run off into a seperate bucket or two until my brew kettle (or temporary HLT) is empty of sparge water and then dump runnings into the kettle and brew on. There are many ways to skin a cat.

Pump is handy, but not necessary. I primarily use them for whirlpooling while I chill, but have used for transferring hot water or wort between kettles, or between kettle and cooler mash tun. I have moved away from heating my mash and sparge water in kettles and pumping to mash tun, and now just heat all my water additions on the stove top in a couple 3 gallon pots and pour into the tun (to save propane).

Sounds like you need to put some thought into what your method will look like when you move to all-grain. If you plan on moving high volumes of (hot) liquid between vessels at the same general height, a pump would be very useful. Water is heavy, and brewing can become very exhausting if you need to be manually moving it all over the place. Also, unless you have already compared the pros/cons and decided, I would consider batch sparging rather than fly sparging. Batch sparging doesn't really create any benefit of a cooler HLT, so that would cut out that cost.

Gravity and cooler with minor mods and your there. Easy to use a couple small kettles to catch the Mash/Sparge runnings and dump back to a high kettle then gravity to the fermentor. There is no sales tax on gravity yet so hurry

If you want a 3 tier system, just make sure your HLT has a sight gauge. Fill the HLT from a food grade hose until it's at the correct volume, fire the burner to the proper temp and then use a valve to move water to your MLT. Drain your MLT to your boil kettle while fly or batch sparging.

If you want a 1 or 2 tier system, you can use a 1 gallon jug to move water. Batch sparging is much easier this way.

Peruvian802 said:

If you want a 1 or 2 tier system, you can use a 1 gallon jug to move water. Batch sparging is much easier this way.

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I built a 3 tier, it wasn't long till I reduced it to a 2 tier and simply started using a 1 gallon pitcher to move sparge water from HLT to MLT. For batches below 10 -15 gallons, the amount of sparge water required can easily be moved a gallon at a time with a one gallon pitcher. While I'm sure pumps are great for some, thee require another regime of work.

Not required at all IMHO

I brewed for years without a pump. I still use a rectangular cooler mash tun for most of my full batches, but sometimes I will do BIAB.

BIAB is a great way to "try out" AG before making a serious investment. It's also a very good way to brew AG anyway, but I find my cooler mash tun to be my preference for full batches.

Back to the pump. It's a nice upgrade. You do have to clean and maintain it, but it's not a big deal. With a pump you can easily go single tier and move liquids back and forth, recirculate, chill etc. without lifting a thing. And you have to be careful not to clog it when pumping. If you often use whole hops, orange peels, large amounts of pellet hops, etc. you will have to find a way to keep them out.

I think my pump was one of my favorite upgrades so far.

Pump is handy to have for sure. I use one with a plate chiller and it is very useful both during the boil, cooling and afterwards diuring cleanup.

Is it needed. No

On another note. A cooler HLT. I really don't see the point in not being able to directly heat a HLT. I've seen them on sale at NB and just scratched my head in puzzled bewilderment.

I do no sparge brewing but a HLT is still useful for infusion step mashes. In this case the HLT is my old 5 gallon pot. I can keep water boiling in it. (at a gentle simmer till needed). A cooler would be an utterly pointless as a substitute.

Many Many of us use a cooler for a mash tun. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact, unless you're planning on doing step mashes, there's nothing better to use, at least for someone getting started, and looking to brew relatively inexpensivesly.
I don't use a pump either. I use chairs or crates to keep my tun on and am able to drain into my kettle on the floor. The 7 gallons pre-boil is no problem to lift to the burner, (if you have back problems, you may want to think over your procedures)
I generally will scoop water from HLT to the mash tun using a quart pyrex measuring cup (with handle), then move that to the crate. I leave it there for the mash period, then drain.
I try to avoid lifting and carrying boiling or near boiling water whenever possible. I also always wear pants and closed toe shoes for safety no matter what.

Cooler mash-tuns make perfect sense.

Gavin C said:

On another note. A cooler HLT. I really don't see the point in not being able to directly heat a HLT....A cooler would be an utterly pointless as a substitute.

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I disagree. Anecdotal evidence suggests that sparge water temperature makes little difference as far as extraction goes. A cooler as a large and cheap liquor holding vessel can be plenty useful for sparging in a gravity fed setup... Heat all your water up at once on a single burner -> pump it all to the top -> brew on. A cooler's insulation at least keeping the liquor warm would save a little time on bringing the runoff to a boil.

thekraken said:

I disagree. Anecdotal evidence suggests that sparge water temperature makes little difference as far as extraction goes. A cooler as a large and cheap liquor holding vessel can be plenty useful for sparging in a gravity fed setup... Heat all your water up at once on a single burner -> pump it all to the top -> brew on. A cooler's insulation at least keeping the liquor warm would save a little time on bringing the runoff to a boil.

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Certainly. The heat of sparge water has nothing to do with the efficacy of a sparge. That is not in doubt. The evidence is not anecdotal. A HLT has other uses though other than for sparging. If I was setting up I would not plan on a cooler HLT. I can see limitations to its usefulness going forward as a brewer's methods evolve.

If I'm going to bother using a HLT, I want to be able to directly heat it otherwise it becomes a problem to solve rather than a solution to a set of brewing problems.

I'm sure lots of folks use a cooler as a HLT with great sucess. It would however, not be something I would want to invest in buying. I'm sure the OP will decide what they feel is best for their setup based on the many different approaches found on HBT.

Setting up my all grain system last winter, I thought about the problem of getting near boiling water high enough to gravity drain into the mash tun for the mash water and the sparge. Ended up buying a temperature controlled electric HLT. Costs a few bucks more,...but works slick.
Bob

Gavin C said:

I'm sure lots of folks use a cooler as a HLT with great sucess.

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So are you still puzzled and bewildered as to why there might be a market for cooler HLTs?

thekraken said:

So are you still puzzled and bewildered as to why there might be a market for cooler HLTs?

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Not at all. Just like there is a market for My Little Pony Hairbrushes. Supply and demand easily explains the presence of a market for a product.

Pumps are not necessary. They might be nice but not a requirement. I just got one a couple weeks ago to make my life easier. I'm sure the first time I use it there will be a learning curve.

thekraken said:

I disagree. Anecdotal evidence suggests that sparge water temperature makes little difference as far as extraction goes.

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Than why have a 'hot' liquor tank at all? Why not just use cold water out of your hose? Or a bucket with water from your tap?

Peruvian802 said:

Than why have a 'hot' liquor tank at all? Why not just use cold water out of your hose? Or a bucket with water from your tap?

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You can! But the hotter the runoff is the quicker you can get to a boil.

(edit) This is hearsay. I'm mostly a full volume/ no sparger and haven't tried this yet. I was just repeating some information I've gathered from the great Kai Troester.

Just as a note, those rubbermaid coolers tend to buckle when you put greater than 170F water in them. Not a problem in the MT, but you may be cutting it close in the HLT.

i appreciate all of the discussion. I am thinking about just lifting it using a 1 gallon jug or something. pardon my ignorance, but how much spare water would i need for a 5 gallon batch? If its few enough gallons, this seems like a good idea.

i also kinda like the idea of the electric heater. I'm going to do more research about all of that.

I built a 2 tier, HLT furthest from the MLT. I use a Pyrex 4 cup to transfer water to the MLT (10gal cooler). I am planning on installing a pump in the near future for simplicity, but the Pyrex works great!

Pump or not? hmm...

The only use I have for my pump at the moment and has been for the past 6 years is to recirculate wort through my plate chiller back into the kettle and create a whirlpool (for hops) if I want to. I drain into my fermentors through the pump and plate chiller, and usually just fed by gravity. It chills those last 20-30 degrees on the way to the fermentor fast enough. The pump also causes too much suction which tends to plug up the filter in the kettle, ending up in a drizzle on the outlet hose. Gravity works better!

I like to mash in a cooler that's on a knee high, low bench and easy to stir. I drain the wort 2-3 gallons at a time into 3.5 gallon buckets which I lift and dump into my kettle. The kettle on a 3500W induction plate is my source for hot brewing water. I temporarily store hot sparge water in a few large pots, while filling the kettle with wort. The temp is not critical for batch sparging, which I do twice with equal volumes. I usually do 5.5 gallon batches, but 11 gallon occasionally. Same system, just larger (15 gal) kettle.

Now we could find ways to make brewing way more complicated...

jdemshki said:

My birthday, and incidentally my first year home brewing anniversary, is coming up in September. Being the good homebrewer I am, I have a huge list of things I want and my be asking for. Obviously not all of them, but a guy can dream. I am thinking about moving to all grain brewing. As I said, I will have been brewing about a year by September and recently moved from 2 gallon batches to 5. (all extract). I have done two 5 gallon batches, and I am still getting used to my new system, but its going well.



My thinking now is I want a B3 cooler system to complement my 10 gallon brewbuilt kettle. These seem to be relatively cheap options and I have heard great things about them. As I was thinking about how it would all work, I was wondering how in the world do I get the heated water into the HLT? I understand I can use gravity to get water out of it for sparging, but if it needs to be up high, so does the water that goes into it.



This brought me to the conclusion that I think I need a pump so I cant pump the hot water up into the HLT. Is there another way to do it?



Thanks!

Click to expand...

I started w/ 3 gal AG batches almost 4 years ago. I used all gravity feed. Even for my CFC.
I one 8 gal kettle. I heated my strike water & mashed in (5 g Rubbermaid) using a one gal pitcher, then heated my sparge water to a little higher temp than needed. I transferred to my HLT ( another 5 g Rubbermaid).
I used gravity to drain my 1st running to my BK then used the pitcher to sparge. I did apply low heat to my first rubbings while waiting on the sparge (10 min) then added the sparge to the BK & turned up the heat for boil.
After flame out I drained the BK via gravity through my CFC into my fermenter.

After a couple of years of success I had an epiphany, it's not more work to make six gallons vs. three. But I did decide to add a pump & a 10 g tun plus I increased my BK to 15 & my MLT to 10.
I still use my CFC but can chill & whirlpool.
Bottom line start simple & do what works for you then expand as needed or desired!

I use a 10 gal Rubbermaid for a HLT, but its for fly sparging only. I heat all of my water in my BK. I typically put 170-190F water in it (over 10 batches) and it has held up perfectly. I do this meerly bc I am all electric and dont want to invest in another element and kettle. For this process, though, I have to use a pump.

I did 10 gal batches with the same kettles minus the HLT with gravity feeding and still faired well. This is just my personal preference.

it seems like if i do not want to get a pump, I basically just need to move the water with a smaller vessel and then sparge using gravity. alternatively, i could pick up the whole big pot and go for that, but that seems like a disaster waiting to happen

jdemshki said:

it seems like if i do not want to get a pump, I basically just need to move the water with a smaller vessel and then sparge using gravity. alternatively, i could pick up the whole big pot and go for that, but that seems like a disaster waiting to happen

Click to expand...

One my 5 gal setup, I would run off my first runnings into my first bucket (with markings), then pour my sparge water (out of my BK) into the MLT, stir, vorlouf, and continue my runoff into the buckets, pour into the BK and resume. Worked flawlessly.

Pouring the sparge water works best with a brew buddy I will say

jdemshki said:

it seems like if i do not want to get a pump, I basically just need to move the water with a smaller vessel and then sparge using gravity. alternatively, i could pick up the whole big pot and go for that, but that seems like a disaster waiting to happen

Click to expand...

You can avoid both manually transferring water and lifting water-filled pots without a pump. That's what a three tier system does. HLT with burner on the top level, cooler MLT (no burner) on the middle level, and boil kettle with burner on the bottom level (and fermenter on the floor). It is old school, but I wanted to ensure that I wouldn't be handling hot liquids or lifting heavy things. When I'm done, I replace the fermenter with a bucket or drain hose, open all of the valves, and drain all of the kettles in a daisy chain so they are empty or nearly so when I remove them from the brewstand. My next brewstand will be a two tier with a pump, but that is because I want to add new functions, like mash recirculation ( and maybe HERMS) and a counterflow chiller. Once I have the pump, I can eliminate one tier.

Natdavis777 said:

One my 5 gal setup, I would run off my first runnings into my first bucket (with markings), then pour my sparge water (out of my BK) into the MLT, stir, vorlouf, and continue my runoff into the buckets, pour into the BK and resume. Worked flawlessly.

Pouring the sparge water works best with a brew buddy I will say

Click to expand...

I used to have my HLT on a burner on my deck, my MT on a table below the deck and the BK on a burner below the table. All gravity fed and it worked beautifully.

You don't have to have pumps and you don't need to scoop water, you just need to have the HLT above the MT and the MT above the BK.

Gameface said:

I used to have my HLT on a burner on my deck, my MT on a table below the deck and the BK on a burner below the table. All gravity fed and it worked beautifully.



You don't have to have pumps and you don't need to scoop water, you just need to have the HLT above the MT and the MT above the BK.

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I had some boxes made from plywood that I used to use to make a tiered system on my deck.

This is the method I use , no pump required.
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

dzlater said:

This is the method I use , no pump required.
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

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This is a great tutorial for simple brewing. I feel it is best for people starting out to start basic, then add as they see fit. If you learn to brew using very basic tools it is easy to progress to any type brew system.