Düsseldorf Altbier recipe critique.

I had an Alt made by Terrapin that I really enjoyed. So I researched the Alt style some more and with some inspiration from the great Kaiser and his Alt in the recipes forum, I came up with this recipe. I'm still pretty new to doin PM with a few under my belt, so I'm a bit unsure about mash temps and water volume for sparge. I do have a calc for temps and volumes for strike water, but nothing for sparge. I was also considering different yeasts. Kaiser recommended wyeast 1007, I've also seen wlp036 used as well. Any suggestions? I was also thinking about adding a half pound or so of carapils. The guy at my LHBS said he always brews with at least a half a pound. He feels it really makes a very nice, long lasting head. I was thinking about fermenting on the low end at 65*F until fermentation is done, then to a secondary for cold conditioning. From what I've heard an Alt benefits from a good cold condition. Any idea how long and what temp? I'm open to any and all suggestions! Thanks a ton in advance.

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Düsseldorf Altbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons
Boil Size: 3 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.047
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5%
IBU (tinseth): 39.72
SRM (morey): 15.65

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen - (late addition) (43.2%)
2 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen (21.6%)
2 lb - German - Munich Light (21.6%)
1 lb - German - CaraMunich I (10.8%)
4 oz - German - Carafa II (2.7%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Spalt, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: First Wort, IBU: 19.43
1 oz - Tettnanger, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 12.33
1 oz - spalt, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 7.96

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 152 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 6 qt
2) Sparge, Temp: 170 F, Time: 15 min, Amount: 6 qt

YEAST:
White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
Starter: 2L
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 65 - 69 F

Paging JLem... Seriously though, I've been researching this style myself and he's made a lot of great posts on this style. Maybe PM him if he doesn't see this thread.

I have done a lot of research recently on this style, but I haven't brewed this style, so take my input for what it's worth. That being said:

- Carapils seems relatively common for this style.

- As far as yeast goes, both WLP036 and Wyeast 1007 are actual Dusseldorf strains, though there is likely differences between them at this point. For example, their stated specs are pretty different. At any rate, you may want to default to one of those yeasts for this style unless you have a good reason to use something else.

- Keep in mind that there are two categories of Altbier: Dusseldorf Alt and Northern German Alt. From some searching it appears that the Terrapin Alt you enjoyed may be more of a Northern German Alt. The main issue there is that Dusseldorf Alts lean towards a higher IBU range. If you brew a Dusseldorf Alt recipe expecting an Alaskan Amber for example you'll often end up with a much more bitter beer than you expect. You may love it just the same... just something to be aware of.

- For the most part, people seem to ferment their Alts towards the low end of the Ale range (55-60f-ish) for 1-3 weeks, and then "lager" the beer at colder temps (I've seen anything from 32 to 45f or so listed). It's pretty important to the style, and will be the first beer I brew when I have the ability to maintain colder fermentation temps.

- Because your recipe contains mostly Pilsen as a base, you may want to consider a longer (75-90 min?) boil to drive off DMS. There seems to be some debate about that, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

If you brew this or something similar, be sure and let us know how it turns out!

Well I'll tell ya. I have an Alt on tap right now and it is good. I did AG but used a lot of the same specialty malts you have listed. I used the 029 yeast to get that Dusseldorf flavor but backed off on the hops amounts.

When all is said and done, it really doesn't taste all that different from a number of other amber ales I make. It has a very general malty, crisp flavor and came out really pretty and clear after "lagering" which was really just sitting in my kegerator until one of my last beers kicked. After buying the special yeast and german grains I don't feel I got anything all that special.

Maybe next time I'll go a little higher on the german hops, if I make it again. I do have a few samples of washed 029 now. But I'll probably go against all conventional wisdom and use it for other "non-guideline" beers.

Awesome advice! I will add some carapils to it for sure. I was considering the 1007 because it says it has a much lower tolerance with the lowest being 55*f. I will look into doing a longer boil or possibly just using some light LME? I am aware of the two categories. From what I've read, the Dusseldorf is the more traditional style using ale yeast strains whereas the lager yeast is primarily used with the northern German. Which I can do in my fermentation chamber, but from what I've read the alt style dates back WAY before lager yeasts were used.I looked into terrapins some more. They had theirs at about 40 IBU's if I remember right. What I liked about the terrapin version was the very malty finish with slight hop bitterness. My recipe is right in line with the hop bitterness. I know the terrapin one also uses melanoidin in addition to what I have. I've never used melanoidin so I'm not sure what it will contribute. Any ideas of how that will change things? I'm pretty excited about this brew.

It's interesting what you said about Northern style alt's being lagers, because I read that for the first time last night. However, I haven't seen a single recipe for one that includes Lager yeast, and every commercial beer listed as a "Northern German Altbier" are listed as Ale's.

Also, I just noticed that the Terrapin website shows Tree Hugger as being 40 IBU. Before my post I had seen it listed as 30 IBU somewhere else. The brewer's website is probably more accurate .

If it's indeed a 40IBU beer your recipe should be in the ballpark. I don't know if you've ever had Otter Creek Copper but that's closer to the profile I'm shooting for.

As far as Melanoidin, when I was throwing together a scratch recipe I was debating whether or not to use some. After a bunch of research I ended up deciding that I'd try to get input from experienced brewers first . It seems to be a malt that does well when trying to replicate the taste of a decoction mash, but can be overpowering. Shrug.

I have yet to find a recipe using lager yeast as well. Quite strange, but I was also looking for advice from experienced brewers by posting this. I'm very much so a noob. I know the recipes that I have seen were pretty much all a decoction mash. So maybe just a couple ounces of it might do if it's pretty strong? I'm loving the idea of this more and more. I'm low on my pipeline...I've been tied up with my keezer build so I'm thinking about a simple apa like Edworts Haus pale ale for a cheap tasty brew with a quick turn a around. Then it will be this alt for sure! You may want to check out kaiser's thread in the recipes. It's in the amber hybrids under kaisers alt. I have been told when kaiser speaks...you listen. Lol. He's a very respected brewer and very involved in the community if you haven't heard of him.

I've read through the "Kaiser Alt" thread for sure! Good stuff.

It was a very good read indeed. I added 4 oz of German melanoidin to my recipe which brought the abv a little above the limits of the style, but at still only 5.3%...I'd say it should be a fine brew.

http://byo.com/stories/item/1205-old-world-alt

I just found this on BYO. What a great article on this style. My recipe is pretty darn close to a traditional alt. If you're interested in brewing an alt...this is a must read.

Based on my research from several recipes and the BYO article I have come up with a final recipe that I think will be good. I have been told because I'm using pilsner as a base malt I should consider a long boil and with the recommendation of an 80 min boil for the style in the BYO article, I thought it was fitting. The hop additions were in the article as well. It states that typically they have three additions at 80, 60, and at 5 min. Let me know what you think!! If no one thinks this needs any tweaking I'll be brewing this in a week or two. I also plan to make this the first beer to serve out of my keezer that I'll hopefully be finishing soon

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Düsseldorf Altbier
Yeast: Wyeast - German Ale 1007
Boil Time: 80 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.049
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 5.14%
IBU (tinseth): 44.69
SRM (morey): 13.11

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen - (late addition) (41.6%)
2 lb - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen (20.8%)
2 lb - German - Munich Light (20.8%)
1 lb - German - CaraMunich I (10.4%)
2 oz - German - Carafa III (1.3%)
8 oz - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (5.2%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.75, Use: Boil for 80 min, IBU: 6.89
1 oz - Spalt, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 80 min, IBU: 14.71
0.5 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.75, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 6.54
1 oz - spalt, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 13.94
1 oz - Hallertau Mittelfruh, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.75, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 2.61

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 152 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 5 qt
2) Sparge, Temp: 168 F, Amount: 2 qt, sparge through strainer into brew pot.

I should probably just let you brew this so we can find out how it turns out, but a couple of thoughts:

- Have you considered using Munich Liquid Extract (which is 50% munich and 50% pale ale) instead of Pilsen?

- You have Carafa III listed. You might want to make sure it's dehusked Carafa III ("Special"). If it's not it may impart flavors that aren't true to the style.

- I might bump the final hops back to 15 minutes to give a little more hops flavor and less aroma. Shrug.

The first suggestion is a pretty big change in the recipe. If you like the numbers here, you should probably stick with what you have here for the most part and see how it turns out.

JPrather said:

I should probably just let you brew this so we can find out how it turns out, but a couple of thoughts:

- Have you considered using Munich Liquid Extract (which is 50% munich and 50% pale ale) instead of Pilsen?

- You have Carafa III listed. You might want to make sure it's dehusked Carafa III ("Special"). If it's not it may impart flavors that aren't true to the style.

- I might bump the final hops back to 15 minutes to give a little more hops flavor and less aroma. Shrug.

The first suggestion is a pretty big change in the recipe. If you like the numbers here, you should probably stick with what you have here for the most part and see how it turns out.

Click to expand...

I have thought about using Munich, in fact I think I did put that in there at what point and it made srm's much higher.

I was not aware there was a different carafa III. I was planning on using the dehusked version. Do they actually call it special?

As far as the hop addition I did have it at 15 min to begin with, but I changed it to match what, according to BYO, most brewmasters in Germany do for their hop additions. I may just have to try both and see which one I like better. I have a feeling if this turns out good, I'm going to want to keep this one on tap a lot.

I won't have any time to brew it for at least a week, but probably more like two weeks : / So making any changes won't be a big deal because I have plenty of time to fine tune!

Somehow ended up double posting...

Justdrumin said:

I have thought about using Munich, in fact I think I did put that in there at what point and it made srm's much higher.

I was not aware there was a different carafa III. I was planning on using the dehusked version. Do they actually call it special?

Click to expand...

The "real" name for the dehusked versions is "Carafa Special" I/II/III. A lot of times when people say "Carafa II" on here they mean the dehusked (special) version. The northern brewer site for example lists them as "dehusked" versions.

As far as the hop addition I did have it at 15 min to begin with, but I changed it to match what, according to BYO, most brewmasters in Germany do for their hop additions. I may just have to try both and see which one I like better. I have a feeling if this turns out good, I'm going to want to keep this one on tap a lot.

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Yeah man, go for it. I'm planning on making a small (~3gal) batch of this stuff for the first time myself, in the coming weeks.

I do a AG Alt that was originally based off of Otter Creek's Copper Ale.

I use Pils base with 2#s of munich, caramunich and a little 120. My late hops are hallertau and tettnanger at 10 mins. My yeast is 029 fermented in the 60s with a good 2 weeks lagered in my garage which is around 40-50 this time of year. I do the 90 minute boil because of DMS concerns, plus it saves a little on bittering hops.

I havent tried melanoiden for this recipe, but used 8oz in a zombie dust clone and the smell is outstanding, Ill probably consider a couple of ounces next time around.

Im pretty happy with the recipe and Ive rebrewed twice to date, usually when I know I can get some good lagering temps.

JPrather said:

The "real" name for the dehusked versions is "Carafa Special" I/II/III. A lot of times when people say "Carafa II" on here they mean the dehusked (special) version. The northern brewer site for example lists them as "dehusked" versions.

Click to expand...

That's good to know! I will keep that in mind. I'm just getting into building recipes and I'm still learning the different malts and hops.

joyceman said:

I do a AG Alt that was originally based off of Otter Creek's Copper Ale.

I use Pils base with 2#s of munich, caramunich and a little 120. My late hops are hallertau and tettnanger at 10 mins. My yeast is 029 fermented in the 60s with a good 2 weeks lagered in my garage which is around 40-50 this time of year. I do the 90 minute boil because of DMS concerns, plus it saves a little on bittering hops.

I havent tried melanoiden for this recipe, but used 8oz in a zombie dust clone and the smell is outstanding, Ill probably consider a couple of ounces next time around.

Im pretty happy with the recipe and Ive rebrewed twice to date, usually when I know I can get some good lagering temps.

Click to expand...

That's pretty much my recipe with a few differences. Yours sounds pretty good too. That's pretty much the same schedule I plan on doing. I have a ferm fridge so I think ill be lagering much colder. I been told that melanoidin imparts some nice aromas, so I may try adding a few ounces in the future.

Edit: I assume most German brewmasters use an 80 min boil for the same reason. Most also use pilsen as their base malts.