CSI - CandiSyrup
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Assuming the target FG has been reached. A primary crash is not ideal but better than over-attenuation.
Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple
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Assuming the target FG has been reached. A primary crash is not ideal but better than over-attenuation.
not sure i agree on this. i'd rather have a slightly thinner beer than risk having diacetyl and acetylaldehyde.
also, if you crash early, it means there are still fermentable sugars left. unless you keep your beer constantly cold, the yeast (or other critters) could restart fermentation. also could result in a little extra sweetness in your beer since fermentable sugars are generally pretty sweet.
CSI - CandiSyrup
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The FG of this ale, (1.012), presumes a subtle residual sweetness, (exclusive of polysaccharides). 100% attenuation is not recommended. The Westvleteren 12 has a subtle but palatable sweetness so the pitch & fermentation schedule is a momentum calculation to reach FG. The monks at St. Sixtus crash the Abt 12 for 6 weeks to flocc the yeast once the FG is reached. The idea is to produce a specific ester/phenol profile, abv, and gravity then control fermentation with a slow-halt crash. Small count residual suspended yeast after bottling will not lower the FG in any significant way, i.e. due to lacking oxygen, high ABV, and low yeast count. With a lager yeast and a lower gravity beer I might be more inclined to side with the theory.
teamcoaster
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Thanks, CSI, for answering my question before I could ask it.
I have a 5 gal. batch of St Bernardus Abt 12 clone (using version .041 of the recipe from your website) in my fermentation chamber. It's at FG and I was wondering why I should give it 6 weeks at 40F before bottling.
"The monks at St. Sixtus crash the Abt 12 for 6 weeks to flocc the yeast once the FG is reached. The idea is to produce a specific ester/phenol profile, abv, and gravity then halt fermentation with a crash to slow-halt fermentation."
BTW, it was mighty tasty when I moved it to secondary. I expect that it will be a nice treat come Christmas. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread!
~Doc
I have a 5 gal. batch of St Bernardus Abt 12 clone (using version .041 of the recipe from your website) in my fermentation chamber. It's at FG and I was wondering why I should give it 6 weeks at 40F before bottling.
"The monks at St. Sixtus crash the Abt 12 for 6 weeks to flocc the yeast once the FG is reached. The idea is to produce a specific ester/phenol profile, abv, and gravity then halt fermentation with a crash to slow-halt fermentation."
BTW, it was mighty tasty when I moved it to secondary. I expect that it will be a nice treat come Christmas. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread!
~Doc
jtp137
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jtp137
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What did you use for the caramelized beet sugar that it specifies in the receipe
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teamcoaster
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I didn't follow the recipe exactly; I used 2 lb of D-180 and 1 lb of CSI Golden syrup, all added at flameout.
~Doc
~Doc
CSI - CandiSyrup
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CSI - CandiSyrup
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el_caro
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Excuse me for asking basic question but I have never seen or done a Decoction Mash before.
I read the above instruction as follows;
Heat 32qts water to 137.5 F and mash in resulting in 132.0 F - hold it there for 10 mins at 132.0 F
Remove 8.79 qt of mash and boil it and then add it back to the rest of the mash resulting in mash temp rising to 151.0 F - hold it there for 30mins at 151.0 F
Remove 4.85 qt of mash and boil it and then add it back to the rest of the mash resulting in mash temp rising to 159.0 F - hold it there for 30mins at 159.0 F.
If the above is correct then I am a little unsure of times as it would take me at least 5- 10 mins to raise temp from 132 to boiling and 151 to boiling.
Would that not result in the first stage(Protein Rest) blowing out to near 20 mins and the next stage (Saccharification Decoct)blowing out to near 40 mins?
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
You may consider a calculated decoction. There are a lot of proven formulas for most any volume and temp target. Here is doc that may help on some of that:
http://www.candisyrup.com/help-docs.html
Look at the link under "Single Decoction: How To"
Cheers
I had the same question and that document doesn't address the timing question. It only says that it will take a variable amount of time. I didn't understand the first time i did a decoction if you subtract or don't count the time it needs to get to a boil, so I basically fudged it and guessed as to the intention of the mash timing, erring on the side of not counting the time it is coming up to a boil and therefore giving the main mash a much longer total time than the sum of the decoction steps.... Turned out good (oktoberfest) so maybe it doesn't matter, still I'm curious.
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CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
The Westy 12 clone uses a single traditional decoction. You would raise the decoction just to a rolling boil which takes a variable amount of time based on volume/equipment, (about 10-12 minutes to hot break on our equipment). It is in the doc but the inference is easy to miss, (last page).
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Sealed yeast capture system parts:
Per an IM, I'm listing the vendors for a few yeast capture system parts that may be hard to locate:
[1 PSI Tri Clamp Check Valve]
http://www.glaciertanks.com/TriClamp_Products-TriClamp_Check_Valve.html
[Tri-Clamp Fittings]
http://www.stpats.com/index.htm
[Tri-Clamp Gasket Screens]
http://www.glaciertanks.com/Products-TriClamp_Screen_Gaskets.html
Per an IM, I'm listing the vendors for a few yeast capture system parts that may be hard to locate:
[1 PSI Tri Clamp Check Valve]
http://www.glaciertanks.com/TriClamp_Products-TriClamp_Check_Valve.html
[Tri-Clamp Fittings]
http://www.stpats.com/index.htm
[Tri-Clamp Gasket Screens]
http://www.glaciertanks.com/Products-TriClamp_Screen_Gaskets.html
Hell yes. Glacier tanks is essentially down the road from me. I believe I could have them fab some tubing and then I'd need the eagle SS catch canister. If they can't fab it, plenty of places in Portland who can. Now to find a similar style conical for cheaper. The one posted is too rich for my blood as a hobbyist.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Stout Tanks has 5 gallon conicals for around $300-$400. You may have to request a tri-clamp port for the lid and lids are thin on the smaller systems, possibly a problem for heavy components like the yeast capture system.
http://conical-fermenter.com/5-6-gallon/
You can also find eagle stainless bottles, (new), on ebay for a good price.
Noob here, made the old world batch with biab and homemade candi syrup with my son, pitched yeast on sunday, og was 1.100. sg today is 1.012 or as close as i can see. Can i crash to 50 in bucket and rack to carboy next week? I don't have time till monday
Wow - it went from 1.10 --> 1.012 in 5 days? Impressive.
IMO, you should wait 2 more weeks now for inorganic and organic reactions to reduce off-flavors that could be in the beer. I am partial to more time in the primary. But, if you are a secondary acolyte then absolutely you can transfer this weekend.
Please post what you did and what you think of your results after a couple of months!
this is just my third batch. My son is in college and he got me interested. We've made a porter and a dry irish stout all grain biab(both turned out very good). I would say our method on this batch would've been hilarious to watch. We finished the last of the stout while brewing. We split the grains between two five gallon paint strainers. brewed in 15 gallon aluminum crawfish pot( with basket to keep bags from scorching). Used electric stovetop in basement( pot covers one large and one small burner) , decocted in seperate pot, mashed in original, tilted basket to drain grain, dropped basket, splattered ceiling, broke hydrometer, boiled, added candi syrup and used hop bag, did not cool, dumped 5 gallons hot into sanitized fermentation bucket and sealed with sanitizer in airlock. next afternoon(sunday) pitched 2 liters of yeast starter and set fermentation chamber to 82(heat). by monday afternoon i had to cool( up to 86) . tuesday am down to 79. back on heat at 82 since. wort is pretty tasty, we saved some original wort in fridge and checked brix/sg. i borrowed friends hydrometer for final. oh yea, I burned the snot out of my thumb dumping 190 f wort
Thanks, should I drop to 50 since I'm at target sg?
jtp137
Well-Known Member
Thats what the monks and CSI do. Some argue to let it go as far down as it wants and cool when the FG is stable over couple days. I want to try this on my next Tripel to see what happens
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I wouldn't do that...but the poster above would. Here is why I would not:
1. Crashing now would possibly/probably slow or stop most of the remaining organic changes that reduce off-flavors (if there are any) and
2. I bottle and if I were to stop fermentation before it is fully complete then when I add priming sugar then I would worry that the beer could over-carbonate and result in exploding bottles...
But, if you have seen no change in SG for the last couple of days then #2 should not be a concern.
I plan to keg, but my son prefers bottles. I crashed to 50 and have essentially been at work since. The wort was actually pretty tasty, hot from alcohol, a little black pepper taste from something. I'll see what my son thinks. Definitely will post results. Thanks for all the feedback
Hope this comes across the right way. Any reason your hydrometer sample looks like a Pale ale?
I just finished my first shot at this on Saturday morning. I'm a metal fabricator so some of this I researched and read about for over a month only because this kind of brewing seems a little more serious than brewing a simpler beer. Brewed the traditional CSI version and followed their pitch amount at what i think was 320 billion. Other than starter size how do i know what I'm pitching? Anyway this thing took off like a rocket. After about 40 hours i was at 1.042 from 1.092. Still working away. The fermenter outside read 84f so i put a fan on it and it came down to 80f.
ha ha, no offense taken. I think our syrup was a little light in color. Our efficiency has been good in the past, and if my og(brix) was correct it was good this time. I knew it looked pale. Still drinking it. May be a new look quad.
My son, who made the syrup, says we should at least rate a dubbel.
FredTheNuke
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Well I am at Pitched Day 6 beginning with a 2700ml 1.040 starter. OG was 1.088 (a bit on the light side but I was .75 gallon heavy at the end of the boil). Now at 1.028. Made an executive decision to rouse the Yeasties with a wine degasser and switched from blow off tubes to 3 piece airlocks (less backpressure). Temp is stuck at 71F - so a few degrees cold. May heat it tomorrow up to 77F (or at least the chest freezer it is in - now open to the garage at 72F ambient).
WOW - the color of this primary is a deep mahogany brown like I've never brewed before!
WOW - the color of this primary is a deep mahogany brown like I've never brewed before!
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Dubbels are normally a little darker than quads on the import side, e.g. visually compare a Westmalle dubbel with a Westvleteren 12. If the picture rendering of the sample is accurate then the color is considerably outside this category of ale and the resulting flavor will be also. You may consider picking up a copy of BLAM (Brew Like a Monk) and adhere more closely to the way the monks brew this ale. Otherwise we're just experimenting around with an unknown ale on an advanced brewing thread, not brewing a Westy 12 clone.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
At low 70's I've seen Westmalle go to 'sleep' in the latter stages of primary. I like to keep it at the top of the 70's and even up to 80F until it reaches 1 point above FG, (1.013). A degasse rouse is an interesting technique...that's a first
+1
I will certainly pick up a copy of blam. I know this is was a difficult bew; but was i correct in assuming the lack of color was due to the syrup? Beside doing biab/no chill, i felt like we followed the recipe pretty well. The stout and porter we brewed both got their color from the grain.
Putting together the measurements for water adjustments to brew on Sunday... I had a smack pack of 3787 that was born on 7 November... Needless to say I was concerned when I didnt get any activity in my starter for the first two steps... I assumed my viability was probably 5%... but on the third step I saw kreusen... So its alive!
Might not hurt to step it again to grow a tad more yeast. You can get away with some under pitching but you'll pay the price in frustration troubleshooting and fixing a stuck fermentation if you under pitch too much. My first attempt got stuck at 1.032 because my starter was too small and I had to grow another from the krausen to get it going again but it took a bit to finish because of the stall.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
1.020 and bubbling at 71F. Come on yeasties push!
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FredTheNuke
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But to quit being stubborn I just connected a 200 watt heater to the ranco controlling my 15cu ft chest freezer with the 3 five gallon westy 12s in it... Heating as we speak.
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Yes, absolutely: all the dark color in this recipe comes from the caramelized syrup.
CSI - CandiSyrup
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Yep, concur.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
You're on the home stretch. Good pitch.
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