The "bad advice I got from the LBHS" thread

At my LHBS an employee told a customer that Caramunich 60L is can be subbed for munich malt in ANY beer if he brewer wants something a little darker. Imagine a beer with Caramunich as a base malt....

The owner of my OLD LHBS ( which mainly exists to sell cigs) once told me that with the quality of today's malt extracts, he couldn'tsee why anyone would want to brew all grain! Thankfully I never really listened to him, and there's been a new shop to open in our area which is much better.

Sadly, I have 2 choices for my LHBS. First is across town (20 minutes), and is pathetic for turnover. I think if anything, they concentrate on wine anyway. I never really asked them for advice, because let's face it, when there's a thick layer of dust on your bags of grain, your extract cans are rusted, and a 3 piece airlock is 6 bucks, you know you're going to get spotty advice.

The next real option is a 45 minute drive away, but is the home of the Maltose Falcons. Fantastic store. Great turn over, and I've never really had bad advice from any of them. But it's a trip.

I'd gladly take advice from the home of the Maltose Falcons...

before i actually got in to it, my LHBS guy said that anything but a 20 boil kit was a waste of time. His beers were watery and cider tasting, his bock was crap as with most of them. He told me that i should never use glass carboys. When i said that a book i read advised me to use them, he replied "then you are reading the wrong book." (he had that exact book on his shelf)

Can employees of LHBSes share idiotic things customers say to them? Because I got a real gem today - a guy wanted to make what I eventually determined was his conception of an imperial porter. He then said, "well, I really want to make something like Dark Lord from Three Floyd's..do you have a recipe for that?"

After I looked up a clone recipe and started going through what would be required, he realized it'd cost more than $50, because, ya know, there's like 12 lbs of fermentables for an extract batch, etc. Then, he revealed that he wanted it to be ready by Christmas! I didn't have the patience to explain why that was impossible, and directed him to a Bavarian Hefeweizen.

Some customers are pretty clueless.

sonetlumiere85 said:

Can employees of LHBSes share idiotic things customers say to them? Because I got a real gem today - a guy wanted to make what I eventually determined was his conception of an imperial porter. He then said, "well, I really want to make something like Dark Lord from Three Floyd's..do you have a recipe for that?"

After I looked up a clone recipe and started going through what would be required, he realized it'd cost more than $50, because, ya know, there's like 12 lbs of fermentables for an extract batch, etc. Then, he revealed that he wanted it to be ready by Christmas! I didn't have the patience to explain why that was impossible, and directed him to a Bavarian Hefeweizen.

Some customers are pretty clueless.

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And most of these customers are probably clueless because of people like you who aren't willing to take the time to explain to them the rights and wrongs of homebrewing. Most LHBS employees expect everyone to know as much as they do. This is simply not true. If they aren't part of an online community, they are relying on YOU for information and guidance. Play the part and give them a hand before you call them clueless.

By the way... you're payed to work at that LHBS. Do your job and help the man. It's not like you have something better to do while ON THE CLOCK. And if you say you did have something better to do...I'm sure your boss would say differently.

Southern, I hear you - it would have been nice to have taken the time to explain why it wouldn't be ready by Xmas. On the other hand, with an entire thread dedicated to pointing out idiotic things said by lhbs employees, I think it's fine to allow one to vent about a customer - we don't need to berate them for it. Just my two cents.

If the customer would have something completely idiotic, I wouldn't have said anything. Not everyone knows about aging beers, especially new brewers. But, the fact that the LHBS employees are paid to help people, and he's clearly stating he didn't want to help... it just irritates me. This is probably a big reason we have new brewers on here asking so many obvious questions and freaking out about their beers.

My mistake for jumping on you like that sonet...it's just a touchy subject since I'm from Rockford and my LHBS is lame about helping people. Very nice people, but worthless info. I had to teach myself how to homebrew and ruined a lot of beer at the beginning because of it.

Pappers said:

Southern, I hear you - it would have been nice to have taken the time to explain why it wouldn't be ready by Xmas. On the other hand, with an entire thread dedicated to pointing out idiotic things said by lhbs employees, I think it's fine to allow one to vent about a customer - we don't need to berate them for it. Just my two cents.

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True enough ... plenty of idiots on both sides of the counter to go around.

sonetlumiere85 said:

Can employees of LHBSes share idiotic things customers say to them?

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Sure, sounds like fun. Just be careful because you might come off looking like an asshat if it turns out that the customer has legitimite questions/concerns and you project a condescending "I don't have time for you even though I am getting paid good money to specifically have time for you" attitude.

Because I got a real gem today - a guy wanted to make what I eventually determined was his conception of an imperial porter. He then said, "well, I really want to make something like Dark Lord from Three Floyd's..do you have a recipe for that?"

After I looked up a clone recipe and started going through what would be required, he realized it'd cost more than $50, because, ya know, there's like 12 lbs of fermentables for an extract batch, etc. Then, he revealed that he wanted it to be ready by Christmas! I didn't have the patience to explain why that was impossible, and directed him to a Bavarian Hefeweizen.

Some customers are pretty clueless.

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Oh. Too late.

How clueless of him to think he wanted a Porter style beer when what he really wanted was a yeasty German wheat beer.

sonetlumiere85 said:

Can employees of LHBSes share idiotic things customers say to them? Because I got a real gem today - a guy wanted to make what I eventually determined was his conception of an imperial porter. He then said, "well, I really want to make something like Dark Lord from Three Floyd's..do you have a recipe for that?"

After I looked up a clone recipe and started going through what would be required, he realized it'd cost more than $50, because, ya know, there's like 12 lbs of fermentables for an extract batch, etc. Then, he revealed that he wanted it to be ready by Christmas! I didn't have the patience to explain why that was impossible, and directed him to a Bavarian Hefeweizen.

Some customers are pretty clueless.

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I hear you man... I was a software consultant for 8 years, I'm well versed in idiot customers. However, look what happened... he left YOUR store JUST AS CLUELESS as he entered it. I think that's the gripe people are going to have with your story. This thread started to vent against LHBS employees because they are expected, if not required, to know more than the average homebrewer. The average homebrewer, unfortunately, is "clueless", as you say, and it's your job to make them smarter than when they entered your store. This is why you even have threads like this... we've ALL been treated like second-class citizens at a LHBS before, and it's just a shame. He's going to try that Hefe, hate it because it's nothing like what he had in mind, probably never come back to your store, and may even get out of brewing entirely. All of those are a crying shame.... and you could've avoided it.

That's all... I know it's hard to have patience with the same noob questions 40 times a day, but if you only wanted to deal with educated beer connoisseurs, you need to go tend bar at a beer snob joint instead of working at a LHBS... my two cents, anyway.

I would have just told the guy that Dark Lord wasn't doable by Christmas... and explained why. But he could have had a robust porter done by Christmas no problem, and that would have been WAY closer to what he was looking forward to having/sharing...

sonetlumiere85 said:

He said, "well, I really want to make something like Dark Lord from Three Floyd's..do you have a recipe for that?"

Then, he revealed that he wanted it to be ready by Christmas! I didn't have the patience to explain why that was impossible, and directed him to a Bavarian Hefeweizen.

Some customers are pretty clueless.

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Ha, some LHBS employees are pretty clueless.

Just so you know, it's actually quite possible to make a good, enjoyable imperial stout within a month; within a couple of weeks actually. Commercial brewers do it all of the time (e.g., Old Rasputin).

I attended a brewing workshop at my LHBS and they walked first timers through the whole brewing process.

This guy stressed the importance of sanitizing and being clean and then when he was showing the bottling step, he started the siphon to the bottling bucket with his MOUTH.

LOL. I really almost started laughing. Good stuff.

I guess I am really lucky the the my LHBS's are very good. I had one issue once. I would not really call it an issue but one of the guys at the store was generally stand offish. So one night I was at a HB meeting and happened to mention it in a conversation I had with a few other guys. The next time I went to this particular LHBS he was ooooo sooo friendly. He even knew my name even though I never gave it to him. I shop there quite often but I am confident that the conversation I had (in confidence) made its way back to him. I think that was kinda *****y of the people at the meeting to "report back" but there is no need to sweat it. Still a good place to shop.

lamarguy said:

Just so you know, it's actually quite possible to make a good, enjoyable imperial stout within a month; within a couple of weeks actually. Commercial brewers do it all of the time (e.g., Old Rasputin).

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Yeah, but the pitching rate and ferm control for a stunt like that would be out of the reach of most noobs, correct? I ask, because I'm still a noob...

MrInternet said:

Yeah, but the pitching rate and ferm control for a stunt like that would be out of the reach of most noobs, correct? I ask, because I'm still a noob...

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I don't consider a high gravity beer to be "out of reach" for new brewers. With an imperial stout, the only real "flaws" are under-attenuation and/or hot fermentation. Both are easily prevented and 98% of the other potential flaws are masked by the roasted barley.

Case in point, we've had guys in our brew club choose to brew an imperial stout as their first beer. With the aforementioned advice, all turned out well.

syd138 said:

Not if you are talking about Brew and Grow..

those guys are arrogant pot heads that know absolutely nothing about brewing. They are complete jerks and offer terrible service. I have gotten terrible advice.. and they have flat out refused to help me with recipes, etc.

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I go to Brew and Grow a lot, and I've never had the problems you're talking about. Great service.

I like Brew and Grow a lot more than I like Chicagoland Winemakers.

I never ask for advice though. I come here for that, and my general experience with small local shops (in any hobby) is that the advice is usually 30 years out of date.

lamarguy said:

I don't consider a high gravity beer to be "out of reach" for new brewers. With an imperial stout, the only real "flaws" are under-attenuation and/or hot fermentation. Both are easily prevented and 98% of the other potential flaws are masked by the roasted barley.

Case in point, we've had guys in our brew club choose to brew an imperial stout as their first beer. With the aforementioned advice, all turned out well.

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Sure, I just meant pulling it off in two weeks... I guess if you're kegging and your recipe isn't "hot" to start with it might be doable...

Anyhoo... I just remembered another howler from a LHBS... tried to sell me a carboy heater since I was gong to be fermenting in the basement to "get your temps up". Errghh????

MrInternet said:

Sure, I just meant pulling it off in two weeks... I guess if you're kegging and your recipe isn't "hot" to start with it might be doable...

Anyhoo... I just remembered another howler from a LHBS... tried to sell me a carboy heater since I was gong to be fermenting in the basement to "get your temps up". Errghh????

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Why is that bad advice? If your basement is 55 in the winter then you probably do need to have your temps up for an ale. Knowing the temperature you ferment at is crucial for trying to repeat a good recipe.

I work at the LHBS. Had a guy come in wanting four pounds of "Dark Grains". I asked him what kind. He said he didn't know. So I asked what he was making. It was some crazy imperial bourbon aged porter. So I should him all the dark grains we had. He picked 4 pounds of Black Patent. However, I did have time to explain why that was a bad idea.

Later he explained he wanted the roasted grains just to boost the ABV. Had time to explain that, too.

My favorite one is this: A LHBS owner said to me, "You should bottle straight out of the carboy. Bottling buckets are known for contamination and there's no way to truly sanitize them. If you use a bottling bucket, you WILL get an infection."

On one hand, I see where he's coming from about minimizing contamination by eliminating the bottling bucket. But, I also think there's no way to thoroughly mix in priming sugar and not kick up any sediment.

sonetlumiere85 said:

Can employees of LHBSes share idiotic things customers say to them?

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seems like a great idea for a new thread! I work at a shop too, and Ive heard a few funny things but I remember back to my first time brewing and I was clueless too.

Actually I havent heard anything too off the wall, but a good one was a guy came in and said he added priming sugar to his beer about a month ago and it still isnt carbonated. After asking him several questions I finally discovered that he racked his beer to his bottling bucket and added priming sugar and expected the beer to carbonate IN THE BUCKET, and he thought he served the beer by opening the spigot on the bottling bucket. And believe it or not, he isnt the only customer Ive heard that from.

Now when I give customers the sales pitch I try to make a point - the beer does not carbonate in the bucket, the beer should only be in the bucket for a matter of hours at the most, not days or weeks.

tedski said:

My favorite one is this: A LHBS owner said to me, "You should bottle straight out of the carboy. Bottling buckets are known for contamination and there's no way to truly sanitize them. If you use a bottling bucket.

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I actually agree with him. If you can bottle from a carboy, all the better. I threw away my bottling bucket a long time ago.

mklawz said:

seems like a great idea for a new thread! I work at a shop too, and Ive heard a few funny things but I remember back to my first time brewing and I was clueless too.

Actually I havent heard anything too off the wall, but a good one was a guy came in and said he added priming sugar to his beer about a month ago and it still isnt carbonated. After asking him several questions I finally discovered that he racked his beer to his bottling bucket and added priming sugar and expected the beer to carbonate IN THE BUCKET, and he thought he served the beer by opening the spigot on the bottling bucket. And believe it or not, he isnt the only customer Ive heard that from.

Now when I give customers the sales pitch I try to make a point - the beer does not carbonate in the bucket, the beer should only be in the bucket for a matter of hours at the most, not days or weeks.

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I hope it wasn't in there with the lid off and everything.

mklawz said:

I actually agree with him. If you can bottle from a carboy, all the better. I threw away my bottling bucket a long time ago.

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So how do you get an evenly distributed prime without all the sediment from the carboy??

You need to have an empty carboy handy. I take an empty carboy, dump in the priming solution, and rack the beer on top of that. (Stir gently with the other end of a sanitized spoon if you feel you didnt get a good swirling motion.) Bottle away!

And it doesnt matter if its a 5, 6, or 6.5g carboy. The beer will only be in there for a short while so headspace isnt an issue.

mklawz said:

You need to have an empty carboy handy. I take an empty carboy, dump in the priming solution, and rack the beer on top of that. (Stir gently with the other end of a sanitized spoon if you feel you didnt get a good swirling motion.) Bottle away!

And it doesnt matter if its a 5, 6, or 6.5g carboy. The beer will only be in there for a short while so headspace isnt an issue.

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I'm glad this works for you but I still think it's harder to sanitize a carboy than a wide open plastic bucket.

I never understand the scratches in your fermenter comments. What the hell do you people clean your buckets with?? A wire bristle brush?

If you use soap, water, and a soft sponge, you're not going to scratch your bucket.

mklawz said:

You need to have an empty carboy handy. I take an empty carboy, dump in the priming solution, and rack the beer on top of that. (Stir gently with the other end of a sanitized spoon if you feel you didnt get a good swirling motion.) Bottle away!

And it doesnt matter if its a 5, 6, or 6.5g carboy. The beer will only be in there for a short while so headspace isnt an issue.

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He was originally saying to use the same carboy as your secondary.

HarryHood1 said:

I'm glad this works for you but I still think it's harder to sanitize a carboy than a wide open plastic bucket.

I never understand the scratches in your fermenter comments. What the hell do you people clean your buckets with?? A wire bristle brush?

If you use soap, water, and a soft sponge, you're not going to scratch your bucket.

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Even just your hand is enough most times.

In regards to sanitation, I am referring more to the spigot on the bottling bucket that can harbor bacteria and crud. Not the bucket itself but the spigot. Personally I never had a problem with mine, but I just got into the habit of using a carboy to bottle from and I feel more comfortable with it than passing my beer thru that spigot.

mklawz said:

In regards to sanitation, I am referring more to the spigot on the bottling bucket that can harbor bacteria and crud. Not the bucket itself but the spigot. Personally I never had a problem with mine, but I just got into the habit of using a carboy to bottle from and I feel more comfortable with it than passing my beer thru that spigot.

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So, you've never experienced any contamination of the spigot, yet you know it can harbor bacteria and crud? They are easily cleaned and sanitized.

lamarguy said:

I don't consider a high gravity beer to be "out of reach" for new brewers. With an imperial stout, the only real "flaws" are under-attenuation and/or hot fermentation. Both are easily prevented and 98% of the other potential flaws are masked by the roasted barley.

Case in point, we've had guys in our brew club choose to brew an imperial stout as their first beer. With the aforementioned advice, all turned out well.

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Agreed. Aside from my first two batches, my next 5 brews or so were all high-gravity and I thought they turned out great. I'm sure if I tasted them now, I wouldn't think so since my beers have gotten 10 fold better over the years, but back then it was good.

tedski said:

So, you've never experienced any contamination of the spigot, yet you know it can harbor bacteria and crud? They are easily cleaned and sanitized.

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1) because Ive spoke to several people coming into the shop with infected beer, where upon we agreed that it could have been the culprit.

2) ever look closely at the thing? you honestly think you are getting in there really well every time you use it? Think again. Not only that, but I bet you didnt know those things come with some kind of grease or lubrication in them. Go to your local shop and put your finger in there. Grease. You want to pass your beer thru that, be my guest.

3) maybe this is why we have ump-teen pages of people bashing the advice from employees of homebrew shops. Could it be because you think you are smarter and more experienced??

mklawz said:

1) because Ive spoke to several people coming into the shop with infected beer, where upon we agreed that it could have been the culprit.

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Of course it could be the culprit. Maybe its the cleaning/sanitizing practices of the user that caused it to be the culprit

2) ever look closely at the thing? you honestly think you are getting in there really well every time you use it? Think again. Not only that, but I bet you didnt know those things come with some kind of grease or lubrication in them. Go to your local shop and put your finger in there. Grease. You want to pass your beer thru that, be my guest.

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I just scraped the one that's been sitting around for awhile and innoculated two agar plates. I'll let you know if any nasties are in there. Once we determine that, I'll sanitize it and do a few more plates. We'll see how many nasties remain.

Its the same food grade silicone that I spray into my ball valves to keep them lubricated. Its the same food grade silicone that is present in Fermcap-S. And yes, I don't mind my beer passing through that.

3) maybe this is why we have ump-teen pages of people bashing the advice from employees of homebrew shops. Could it be because you think you are smarter and more experienced??

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Maybe the attitude of you being superior because you work in a LHBS is the reason we have ump-teen pages of people bashing the advice from employees of homebrew shops. Could it be because salesmen all of a sudden think they're the only subject matter experts?

I dont have a superior attitude at all. And neither does anyone who works at the shop I work at. You brought up the issue of the bottling bucket (by way of criticizing your LHBS owner giving advice), and I simply stated I agree with him. So there ya go. I give my opinion as an experienced homebrewer and you take it as superiority. THAT is why we have umpteen pages bashing LHBSs.

And lastly, Im hardly a salesman. Im a hobby enthusiast who loves talking about, and sharing homebrewing experiences with others, particularly noobies who need the help. Tell me, how are you being helpful??? Other than your cynicism of LHBS owners advice, of course.

mklawz said:

I dont have a superior attitude at all. And neither does anyone who works at the shop I work at. You brought up the issue of the bottling bucket (by way of criticizing your LHBS owner giving advice), and I simply stated I agree with him. So there ya go. I give my opinion as an experienced homebrewer and you take it as superiority. THAT is why we have umpteen pages bashing LHBSs.

And lastly, Im hardly a salesman. Im a hobby enthusiast who loves talking about, and sharing homebrewing experiences with others, particularly noobies who need the help. Tell me, how are you being helpful??? Other than your cynicism of LHBS owners advice, of course.

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I guess this is a sore subject for you. Out of all of the advice I've ever heard in the various LHBS I've been in, I noted one single point that I did not agree with. Then, I qualified it by saying I saw exactly where he was coming from. Only then did I outline my disagreement and my reasons for not heeding the advice. At no point in time did I bash my LHBS or their advice. Hell, you even noted disagreement with his technique by saying you need to use a second carboy.

Then you come along and assume I feel I'm smarter and more experienced. I understand your defensive stance regarding the 'bashing of LHBS', however, this thread has become a 2 way street in that regard, with an increasing amount of customer bashing involved.

Sore subject? eh, not really. I just dont like the trend Ive been noticing of forum users making their LHBS folks out to be unhelpful, conceited, and/or complete buffoons. Because at the shop I work at, no one is like that. Ill readily admit the owner might give some advice to people that I might not do myself, but that is because there are many ways to do things, not because the man doesnt know how to brew beer. In fact, that couldnt be further from the truth!

A lot of the advice we give might be catered more towards newbies, and advanced brewers might find more help online. And sure, there is probably a lot of strange advice out there - perhaps the employees were idiots, but I havent heard anything at my shop that would make me jump in the conversation and challenge them.

BTW, the LHBS bashing Ive seen other places than just this thread. Sorry if I took my defensive stand out on you...

tedski said:

I guess this is a sore subject for you.

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Do you disagree that its harder to clean a bottling spigot than to clean a bucket/carboy?


I don't have to take apart a carboy to clean it.

I've had a couple of batches go infected, all in bottles. I've never had a kegged batch with a problem.

Synovia said:

Do you disagree that its harder to clean a bottling spigot than to clean a bucket/carboy?


I don't have to take apart a carboy to clean it.

I've had a couple of batches go infected, all in bottles. I've never had a kegged batch with a problem.

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I agree that it is harder to clean a bottling spigot than to clean a bucket/carboy. Do you disagree that is is harder to ensure an even dilution of priming solution in a carboy than in a bucket?

I seem to get this every time I go to the LHBS to buy extract, hops, grains, etc --- They always tell me to not bother and use the pre-made, no boil beer-in-a-bag wort kits.

Well good sir, if I wanted something that simple I would just go to the liquor store and purchase a six pack. But thanks for asking.