Quick Starter Question: Grain for LME?

Going to make a starter tomorrow; my LHBS is just over two hours away so I get my supplies via Midwest and on-line. I have ingredients for a great Dopplebock, but no extra LME for doing a starter for the yeast. Since my OG is predicted to be close to 1.080, I know I need the starter. I do have about a pound extra of Caramunich III. Can I steep this in a half-gallon of water and use it for the starter wort? I do have some extra dextrose, but do not want to use that if I don't have to.

Thank you for your wisdom!

Interesting question! Ccaramel malts contain a mix of fermentable and unfermentable sugars (ref), so a "tea" made from your malt wouldn't have the same amount of usable sugars as a wort made from DME or base malt. However if you use the whole pound you just might get enough fermentables to give your yeast enough food for a starter.

If anything trying this likely won't hurt your yeast, they just might not propagate as much as in a normal starter.

Steeping a pound of Caramunich in half a gallon of water will probably give you an SG of 1.002 and much of the sugars added will be unfermentable. That's a far cry from the usual 1.040 SG in a starter.

You should really use DME (not LME), but if the dextrose is all you have then the dextrose will do. With 5 gallons of a wort at 1.080 you'll need a 1 gallon starter or so (4.12 liters) without a stirplate. That means you'll need almost 1 pound of dextrose. With a stirplate you'd need substantially less. If you have enough dextrose, it'll work, but you need to let the starter ferment for 48 hours then chill in the fridge until most/all of the yeast has dropped out of suspension. That'll put them in a better place to ferment the maltose in the beer.

Honestly, though, I think you're better off putting off the brew and ordering some DME.

Actually, correction:

A Doppelbock is a lager, so if you're using lager yeast you'd need an 20.43L starter with only one yeast pack and no stir plate.

mojotele said:

Actually, correction:

A Doppelbock is a lager, so if you're using lager yeast you'd need an 20.43L starter with only one yeast pack and no stir plate.

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This is actually an Imperial Oktoberfest, but with a higher OG and much darker color, fell more in the dopplebock style guide vs. oktoberfest, even tho the recipie is really an amped-up o'fest. Either way, yes, lager, using WL820 Oktoberfest Marzen yeast.

Did you mean to type 2.43 L starter?

SpaceportBP said:

Did you mean to type 2.43 L starter?

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Nope. 20 liter starter according to good ole' Mr. Malty. That's assuming you're just letting the starter sit and you only have one pack of yeast.

With 2 packs of yeast you can get that down to an 8L starter. And, with 2 packs of yeast and a stir plate you can get that down to a 3L starter.

Lagers require you to pitch A LOT of yeast.

Well, I went to Mr. Malty and fooled around with the numbers. Whoolley cooomoooly, you are of course right. Tons of yeast. 20L "starter" is a 5 gal brew!

How is it that the on-line companies can sell kits with only one vial? I dug around the Midwest site and found a Dopplebock with 3 more lbs of LME than I am planning on; OG 1.084, shipped with one vial of WL830!

Wow, really? They're doing that? Well, I guess if White Labs can say that one vial is enough without a starter then the kits can get away with just giving you one vial.

One vial could work without a starter, but I'm willing to bet you'll have a ridiculously long lag time, all sorts of undesirable flavors, and possibly a stalled fermentation.

I say get yourself another vial of your yeast and several pounds of light DME. Make yourself at least the 2 gallon starter with 30.2 ounces of DME and pitch both vials. You can probably do the starter in your bucket or carboy. Once you're ready to pitch the wort, siphon off the 2 gallons of starter, dump that, then pitch your lager on the yeast cake that's left.

By the way, you should really use DME instead of LME for your starters for a multitude of reasons. First, it is much easier to measure (always use 4 oz. per liter, easy peasy). Second, DME keeps better so you can have lots of it on hand for starters without worrying about it going bad.