Cascadian Dark Ale/Black IPA: Should it be a new style in BJCP?

After looking over multiple threads on these forums I have seen quite a few dedicated to this 'style'. And, in many of those threads people mention that it should be a style included in the BJCP with its own guidelines and descriptions. So, I ask you, do you think that it deserves its own category?

For me, I'm not really convinced I've seen any reason to. From the commercial examples I have tasted like Stone's Sublimely Self-righteous, and Victory's Yakima Twilight - I really haven't tasted anything that differentiates these beers from American IPAs/IIPAs - there may be a slight roast character to them but nothing that is anything more than barely detectable. The only thing that really is different is the color - and to me, that alone isn't a reason for its own category in BJCP. Also, looking at the several recipe threads in this forum, none of them really incorporate the rich malty/roasted/coffee flavors we all associate with dark/opaque beers. I'm not asking for a hoppy stout or imperial stout, but just enough of something different to set it apart.
Perhaps though, being on the east side of the country, I haven't really experienced the best examples for the style, and I'm definitely open for suggestions on what good beers would better represent this style.

Yes - Absolutely. It's a unique combination of hop bitterness and malt character that is unlike other styles.

There is some inertia against adding new styles to the BJCP. The criteria for adding it would be first that a lot of home brewers are entering it into category 23 and second that some enterprising subject matter expert drafts the guideline, and ideally home brewers would submit this draft as instructions to the judges along with the beer they entered into category 23.

The preliminary style guide has been drafted. It will probably be in the next revision. Both the BJCP and BA style guides are driven by commercially available beers and there are several dozen CDAs out there.

BJCP Style or not, this is getting brewed this weekend. MLT is constructed, yeast starter is crash cooled. All I gotta do is clean up my messy-a$$ kitchen before brewday!

Anyone know of any commercial varieties of this style I can try that I can get here in Chicago?

I really think the BJCP guide holds too much weight and is too limiting. I don't see why people care.

I agree with the above. Even though I am definitely focused on getting some ribbons in the future, most of my beers would not fit into any of the categories other than 23.

Ditto both above.

Styles are a great place to start. I'm not convinced they are a great place to end. The fact that a new pigeon hole has to be created for a new beer that doesn't fit any of the other pigeon holes convinces me to look in the opposite direction.

skibb said:

Perhaps though, being on the east side of the country, I haven't really experienced the best examples for the style, and I'm definitely open for suggestions on what good beers would better represent this style.

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This is a style I have little experience with, but I have been drinking the heck out of Upland Brewing's (Bloomington, IN) Komodo Dragonfly Black IPA. 65.5 IBUs and heavy on coffee and burnt malts, I don't know what style it should fall under, but man oh man is it good.

DRoyLenz said:

BJCP Style or not, this is getting brewed this weekend. MLT is constructed, yeast starter is crash cooled. All I gotta do is clean up my messy-a$$ kitchen before brewday!

Anyone know of any commercial varieties of this style I can try that I can get here in Chicago?

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I can get Victory's Yakima Twilight in Milwaukee, so you should be able to get it in Chicago. It's dangerously delicious.

There needs to be a 14D - Specialty IPA category for all of the IPA's that don't fit in other 14 categories. Black IPA, Rye IPA, Oak Aged IPA etc. IMO, thats a better option, and will free up a good bit of entries that would otherwise be a 23.

There are so many obscure and interesting beers that just aren't as much of a fad right now. Unless they devote a category to gose, lichtenhainer, Rye IPA, etc, it shouldn't get one as well. That said, I do enjoy these beers.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/03/black-ipa.html

had an interesting discussion of this topic. If all that's different from export/imperial stout/porter and "Black IPA" is forward American hops, is it really a new style?

I'm not into competitions, but 14.D is the best suggestion I've heard yet. Then let the entrant decide if its a BIPA or CDA and the rest of us can move on with our lives.

I'd like to see 14D implemented as it takes care of some other beers that probably don't need their own category but have been popular longer than black IPAs (brown IPAs and rye IPAs mostly).

I would also like to see 16,17 and 18 each have their own specialty subcategory. Wits shouldn't be in the same flight as three philosophers clones. Also that keeps american wild/sour beers out of 23 (and with a 14D keeps all the IPA variants out too) so that kinda empties 23 of the usual suspects and would let some of the more truly creative efforts shine.

Since I have too much time on my hands (also, since the Sam Adams Longshot competition is restricted to category 23 this year), I plotted some of the quantifiables of the BJCP styles against each other. Notwithstanding the use of non-traditional ingredients, there aren't really that many gaps between existing styles--there's plenty of room to ramp up the ABV and IBUs, of course, but the only obvious gaps are brown/hoppy (e.g. India Brown Ale), *very* pale/hoppy, (e.g. Imperial Pilsener), strong/black/barely hopped (black malt liquor?), and high IBU/low ABV (light IPA?).

In all seriousness, though, 14D seems like the best idea for the reasons already mentioned.

Was just reading the new BYO July/Aug 2010 issue and it appears that the BA has approved it as a new style for commercial purposes (GABF). They did change the name and tweak the parameters a bit.

from what Ive been able to read in the article from that style it just sounds like a Schwartzbeer with american hops bittered to IPA levels and fermented with American Ale yeast... what am I missing?

Mirilis said:

from what Ive been able to read in the article from that style it just sounds like a Schwartzbeer with american hops bittered to IPA levels and fermented with American Ale yeast... what am I missing?

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Thats pretty much it. Really more like a regular IPA with some debittered black malt thrown in to make it black. I haven't tried all of them out there, but thats what the Stone offering seemed like to me. IMO, if it starts getting roasty, thats just a hoppy stout or porter.

Mirilis said:

from what Ive been able to read in the article from that style it just sounds like a Schwartzbeer with american hops bittered to IPA levels and fermented with American Ale yeast... what am I missing?

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Basically, and if you haven't tried it then you're missing a lot!

Mirilis said:

from what Ive been able to read in the article from that style it just sounds like a Schwartzbeer with american hops bittered to IPA levels and fermented with American Ale yeast... what am I missing?

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Ummmmm.....

From what I read, a porter is just like a kolsh except that it's bittered with english hops, has some dark grains in it and uses a different yeast. What am I missing?

I think it needs it's own category. I've been obsessed with Black IPAs since Sublimely Self Righteous, and really loved my own brew of this beer. I'm thinking of taking this experiment and running with it. My IIPA that won 2nd place at Hogtown, I'm going to try it with extra dry hop and with Belgian yeast strand, then I'm going to try it with 5% of Carafa III added to it, then, if they both turn out well, I'll combine the ideas and make a CDA of my IIPA recipe with Belgian yeast. I can't wait to see what I can do with it!

Take a trip to Portland and go pub crawling. If you hit up Horse Brass Pub and The Green Dragon you'll probably be able to try a half dozen different examples of Cascadian Dark Ale.

There's a surprising diversity within the style. Some put more accent on the hops, some put more accent on the roasted malts (divested of their astringency by using de-husked malt and/or using cold steeping.)

The combination of roasted malts and citrus hops brings something new to the table. There's the sense of rosemary, mint, and other strange and pleasant tastes I've never experienced in any other style.

I brewed my own CDA before I ever got my hands on a commercial version to try, and it's all because of this message board!

I managed to have one (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/22951/55019/?ba=abecall98) first before making my own (cold-steeped Carafa and lots of late Cascade--a real winner), but I'm still not sure about defining a new, exclusive style for the CDA/IBA/BIPA. A catch-all Specialty IPA category still seems like the best bet. Existing IPA style guidelines explicitly preclude the use of Oak, but Ballantine was "oaking" theirs in the '50s. Dogfish's India Brown doesn't use Pacific Northwest hops (not that they really brew to styles, anyway). And this new category still wouldn't do anything about all the RyePAs out there.

I brewed one of the clones today. I think its gonna be good. They say you should close your eyes and be able to smell and taste a IPA without smelling or tasting the tannins from the dark roast grain. Mild to no Caramel flavor, hint of chocolate, hint of coffee. ALL NORTHWEST HOPS ONLY i.e. Cascade, Simcoe, Amarillo, Warrior... etc. etc. etc.
OG 1.056-1.075
FG 1.012-1.018
IBU 50-70
SRM 30+

cookinwood said:

They say you should close your eyes and be able to smell and taste a IPA without smelling or tasting the tannins from the dark roast grain.

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I don't agree with that at all. What's the point if it's just color? What makes the style special is the mix of dark roasted grains and northwest hops. If you just have one but not the other, it's nothing special.

mrgstiffler said:

I don't agree with that at all. What's the point if it's just color? What makes the style special is the mix of dark roasted grains and northwest hops. If you just have one but not the other, it's nothing special.

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Agreed - if you can't taste the astringency of the roasted barley in a dry stout, it's not really a dry stout. If you can't taste the fruitiness in an ESB, it's not really an ESB. Use your SAT skills here - if you can't taste the roast/NW hops in an IBA/CDA/BIPA, it's not really an IBA/CDA/BIPA.

Don't shoot the messenger. I am just quoting Brew Your Own Magazine July-August 2010 page 27-28 under "Comments" on what a panel of professional brewers agreed on. I agree that why put grain in it that would not give it profile. It also says in the next paragraph... "Charlie Papazian had completed the style update for 2010 and included this new style. The name "Cascadian" was deleted as it was felt non-Northwestern brewers may be turned off to the style if it hinted of regional exclusivity. The name is American Style India Black Ale."

cookinwood said:

"Charlie Papazian had completed the style update for 2010 and included this new style. The name "Cascadian" was deleted as it was felt non-Northwestern brewers may be turned off to the style if it hinted of regional exclusivity. The name is American Style India Black Ale."

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I don't quite get why people would be turned off to it... I guarantee 95% of people have no idea what/where Cascadia is. I hadn't heard of it until I first had a CDA. I don't think anyone has a problem with California Common or Dusseldorf Altbier.

Why not just American Black Ale? Not as much charm as Cascadian Dark Ale, but better than American-style IBA. Don't confuse it with that Italian-style India Black Ale or the Peruvian-Style India Black Ale.

There are three issues with the California Common: 1) Anchor trademarked "Steam Beer" and won't let anyone else use it. 2) the beer style has 200 years of history. 3) a lot of people still call California Commons "Steam Beers" unless they are selling the beer or entering it into competion.

Altbiers have similar issues. How many people actually refer to it as Dusseldorf Alt? It has more history than Steam Beers.

CDAs have how much history on their own? Maybe a decade.

You're right "Cascadia" or even "Cascadian Dark Ale" means nothing to most people. Hence why it shouldn't be in the name of the style unless emphasizing the regionalization is the goal. Whereas a name that includes "India" and "Ale" ties it to the history of the PA and IPA, which is more than a decade long. And therefore is a name that will be more meaningful to more people.

Why not just American Black Ale? Not as much charm as Cascadian Dark Ale, but better than American-style IBA. Don't confuse it with that Italian-style India Black Ale or the Peruvian-Style India Black Ale.

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I like this too. Even modern American IPAs bear little resemblance to English-style ones, so why keep tying beers with ever-more distant flavor profiles to the original IPA?

I am in the "I don't get it" camp. The BYO article says it should be indistinguishable from an American IPA except for the color and suggests using flavorless coloring compounds to achieve it. Yes, color is an attribute but a flavor profile ought to be a distinguishing feature.

Bahh. Damn Cascadians! They're shiftless drunks. They smell of hops. They take brewing jobs away from Americans. We need a wall!

swankyswede said:

I don't quite get why people would be turned off to it... I guarantee 95% of people have no idea what/where Cascadia is. I hadn't heard of it until I first had a CDA. I don't think anyone has a problem with California Common or Dusseldorf Altbier.

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1. California Common and Dusseldorf Altbier are historically significant styles.

2. California Common and Dusseldorf Altbier actually originated in the geographical areas referenced in the style name. We know that dark IPAs were made in Vermont, Texas and California long before the earliest examples cited for the NW. This would be like the Germans trying to call Pilsener "German Hoppy Beer".

cookinwood said:

The name is American Style India Black Ale."

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I wont shoot the messenger, but I think that the proposed name is too long and hearkens back to an era and culture that is irrelevent to this style. "Today" (give or take 10 years) is when this style emerged. The 'India' in this name is archaic and unnecessary.

It should have been ABA - American Black Ale.

New proposal: the naming committee should be punished by constant exposure to impromptu vuvuzela orchestrations by the drunks at the World Cup.

I think the addition of "flavorless coloring compounds" is probably an anathema to homebrewers, but I can only speak for me.

In theory, an IPA that is flavorlessly colored black should score 1 pt lower on a BJCP score sheet than the same beer in pale form. That, in and of itself, would argue against promulgating a description of what the BYO article is describing. If you REQUIRE substantial specialty malt character then you have something that was new and interesting when it was invented in California and Texas almost 30 years ago.

swankyswede said:

I don't quite get why people would be turned off to it... I guarantee 95% of people have no idea what/where Cascadia is. I hadn't heard of it until I first had a CDA. I don't think anyone has a problem with California Common or Dusseldorf Altbier.

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Besides what remilard mentioned above, they probably want to minimize the BA being associated with any politics like the Cascadia independence movement.

SPLASTiK said:

Besides what remilard mentioned above, they probably want to minimize the BA being associated with any politics like the Cascadia independence movement.

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I think it's more likely that the fact that there's a hop named "Cascade" played into it--rightly or wrongly, people are liable to think that a "Cascadian" beer has Cascades in it, just as they'd think a "Saazian Lager" or "Fugglian Pale Ale" would tend to indicate that a particular hop is in that beer.

I think people should stop quoting the BYO article.

The author uses the original proposal as the source for 3/4 of the article which details the style and then casually offers that the BA backed out all of the regional marketing propaganda in the last couple of grafs.