I've noticed on some of the higher end craft beers like Dogfish Head have "Ages Well" or something similar on some of their bottles. I see that big beer companies and some smaller ones use pasteurization and microfiltering to extend the shelf life of their beers, so obviously these beers would not age well at all. I'm curious - what makes a beer age well? And can you age these beers as long as you would with some wines?
Beer that ages well?
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Tonedef131
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What is obvious here? Filtering the yeast out will only help improve shelf life, yeast at that point in the process are doing nothing but autolyzing.
Edit: To expand a bit more, the two things that have the biggest impact on how well a beer will age are purity and oxygen. The more oxygen and contaminates you can keep out of a beer the better shelf life it will have. Therefore purging bottles with CO2 and pasteurization are paramount, beyond that filtering and keeping it cold are going to help a great deal as well.
Obviously beers with fresh hop flavor will change quickly and not usually for the better with age. Smaller beers with more delicate flavors also tend to age poorly.
But i've tried a bud heavy that was over a year old (regrettably it was the only kind of beer in my grandfathers fridge) and it tasted HORRIBLE. I've tried Three Philosophers that was 2+ years old and it was truly an awesome beer to drink. I don't really understand what you are saying - the bigger companies (like AB) do the things you talk about yet their beer tastes like **** if its not fresh (more ****ty rather)
Research Russian Imperial Stout (RIS) and Inda Pale Ale (IPA) to find out why some beers age well. These styles were developed just for this purpose.
Small beers (low ABV and especially low bittering) don't do well, from ANY brewer.
Small beers (low ABV and especially low bittering) don't do well, from ANY brewer.
thedigitale
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I cracked open a '94 Sam Adams Triple Bock last year and it was excellent.
In addition to hops, alcohol is a great factor as well, as it acts to preserve the beer. Generally beers that are going to be aged will have an ABV over 10%, which is why you'll often see beers like barleywine aged, but bitters never aged.
In addition to hops, alcohol is a great factor as well, as it acts to preserve the beer. Generally beers that are going to be aged will have an ABV over 10%, which is why you'll often see beers like barleywine aged, but bitters never aged.
What????? Yeast are continuing to autolylize in you bottles???? Where the heck did you get that nonsense????
First off there is barely any yeast in your bottles of beer, to cause any danger if that were even the case.
Secondly autolysis is not the natural progression of healthy yeast (dormancy is)...it is rare to even deal with in the fermenter, let alone in the bottle...It is something that panicky new brewers have blown up into some boogeyman...Get over it...quit fearing the yeast.
Besides many bottle conditoned commercial beers exist that are not filtered or pasturized, and even some ADD yeast (like belgians) after killing off the fermenting strain to hide it and again no one's ever talked about autolysed bottles of beer.
And in the case of our own homebrew, in the Dec 07 Zymurgy Charlie Papazian reviewed bottles of homebrew going back to the first AHC competition that he had stored, and none of them went bad, some had not held up but most of them he felt were awesome...We're talking over 20 years worth of beers. And I can assure you he never mentioned the word autlolysis.
And since it was homebrew it was highly doubtful that ANY OF THOSE WERE FILTERED OR PASTURIZED.
Skibb, you will find there are VERY FEW homebrewers who bottle micro-filter or pasturize, and plenty that age and store beers and even vertically taste them..
Yes certain things will not hold up over time, hops and spices may fade. Low grav beers will not taste the best...but higer grav beers from stouts on can and OFTEN are aged and stored..In fact some beers aren't even drank til they've aged a year.
But geez...any idea that a beer autolysizes in the bottle is just total bs.....
Oh my god...NOW we are going to have newbies scared to bottle their beer cause of surperstitious garbage like this....
Go dig up the issue I was referring to and read Charlie's article you will find quite a gamut of beers that he tested...and they all weren't strong ales either...
I've tasted 2 year old bottles of my own beer, and they've all been delicious...some have changed from when they were brewed...many mellowed and smoothed out..but none turned "bad."
+1 Revvy
I also have a few brews that I am waiting to drink, they have aged for almost 18 months now (Easter 08 R.I.S.)
Along with a few of my "first born" that I am looking forward to tasting !
Honestly I cannot see spending the money on all of that Filtering Equipment needed to strip all of the yeast from my brews, and than go and force carb in a bottle..
but, these are only my opinions...
-Jason
I also have a few brews that I am waiting to drink, they have aged for almost 18 months now (Easter 08 R.I.S.)
Along with a few of my "first born" that I am looking forward to tasting !
Honestly I cannot see spending the money on all of that Filtering Equipment needed to strip all of the yeast from my brews, and than go and force carb in a bottle..
but, these are only my opinions...
-Jason
Tonedef131
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Revvy you need to settle down as you seem to get upset any time someone mentions that word. Fact of the matter is that the yeast are doing nothing at that point OTHER (not saying they necessarily are) than autolyzing. Will the tiny amount of yeast in the bottle effect the flavor? Probably not, especially in the kind of beer thy people are laying down. I would never concern myself with it, but it is still happening slowly over time. All I was saying is that those are the primary influences in a beers ability to age well and you will notice seperating yeast was a secondary concern. But if you were to do all those things and then do a side by side with a beer which you had not, the paseurized filtered and cold stored
beer will have held up better.
beer will have held up better.
Tonedef131
Well-Known Member
To further expand I would like to remind everyone that we are not talking about you bottle conditioned homebrew that you will be keeping around for a couple years. You have nothing to worry about.
We are talking about the best possible contitions for beer to be kept at for optimum shelf life. There is a reason commercial breweries do all those things. They don't know how the beer will be handled and have to expect the worste to esure a consistant product.
I just wanted to point out that yeast in the bottle do not allow it to age better. Likely they are doing nothing, and if IMPROPERLY handled could autolysize...but are incapable of pretty much anything else.
We are talking about the best possible contitions for beer to be kept at for optimum shelf life. There is a reason commercial breweries do all those things. They don't know how the beer will be handled and have to expect the worste to esure a consistant product.
I just wanted to point out that yeast in the bottle do not allow it to age better. Likely they are doing nothing, and if IMPROPERLY handled could autolysize...but are incapable of pretty much anything else.
carnevoodoo
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Does 'excellent' mean, "tasted like soy sauce"? Because that's what that beer tastes like. Nasty ****.
As far as aging goes, a bottle conditioned beer will always outlast a filtered beer. I'm not entirely sure of the scientific properties that dictate this sort of thing, because there's still work to be done on that, but I will guarantee you that if you took two bottles of the same beer and sat them side by side, you will see that the bottle conditioned beer will age better.
All beer changes with time, and there are certainly beers that hold up better, but with every bottle I've opened that was bottle conditioned vs. a similar and equally good beer that was not, the bottle conditioned beer holds up better. And I might have had an aged bottle or two in my time.
Revvy is right in this case.
Autolysis is to yeasts what peritonitus is to humans, it's a specific condition. Everyone who dies doesn't have their intestines rupture and rotten bacteria dump into their bloodstream. NOR does every yeast cell that dies dump the contents of IT'S cells into the beer. If that were the case your preposterous theory would be in evidence, in fact every beer we ever make would autolysize...
Besides Palmer even says this about autolysis..which is in HIS LAGER SECTION ANYWAY!
Autolysis is not the INEVITABLE conclusion of a HEALTHY yeast...and it's not something that ANYONE needs to worry about in aging beer....Sheesh
AND YOU have to realize that it is NOT a good idea to bandy that word around lightly...because sadly to say many new brewers believe autolysis is inevtible....THAT"S WHY I GET "UPSET" when the word is cast about....most of us are trying to dispel that "boogeyman" rather than perpetuate it.....
And ESPECIALLY when it is cast about in such a stupid way as this nonsense.....Autolysis in a bottle, my god....
carnevoodoo
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See, if people would have let me punch Revvy in the face, this never would have happened.
Even if I agree with him this time.
Even if I agree with him this time.
carnevoodoo
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Oh, and did someone mention that the yeast in the bottom of the bottle will also scrounge for oxygen? Because it will. Meaning less chance of oxidation in the long run, which is typically the most common off flavor in an aged beer.
thedigitale
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Actually, Champagne is intentionally aged "on the lees" to produce complex flavors that come with autolysis's progression. The yeast sediment in a beer bottle does in fact cause this to some extent, however a beer that is meant to be aged, will use this to it's advantage in order to produce a more robust, complex tasting beer.
And I bet you, the reason he is asking is because he wants to know what he needs to do to age HIS homebrew. If HE needs to "micro filter and get rid of the yeast."
(See 'voodoo I used yeast properly this time.
)And I think Papazian proved it in his Zymurgy article myself......At the most you might want to consider oxygen barrier caps and a high gravity...But micro filter and pasteruize...and worry about *giggle* bottle autolysis....
NAH,
See, if people would have let me punch Revvy in the face, this never would have happened.
Even if I agree with him this time.
Hey I even called my yeastie friends "yeast" just for you.
Tonedef131
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I'm glad we can't have an in depth discussion about certain aspects of beer on this forum because people are scared new brewers will read it and concern themselves with it. Jesus Christ.
thedigitale
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Tasted not too far from what it does now back in '94... I enjoy it and it aged well... it's not for eveyone!
Well we do have a section for intelligent scientific discussions about such things....It's the brewing science section....
But certain things do induce fear in new brewers....and SOME of us care that MISINFORMATION doesn't get bandied about as fact....
You wanna hear a true story about how misinformation and even conjecture can be a problem?
Once upon a time, a couple years back when the "Olive Oil Oxygenation" discussions were flying around. Some brewer on their very first batch, and not understanding ANYTHING about the brewing process, and after reading about people using 1 drop of oil, thought "Well if 1 drop of oil works, then 1 tablespoon (or whatever the amount was) must work better." And he started an is my beer ruined thread, but didn't mention that he added the oil. And many of us spent a couple days trying to trouble shoot hos problem. FINALLY he mentioned he added the oil....
And of course the beer was ruined, and had to be dumped....And he did it with NO UNDERSTANDING about anything about the brewing process..
So yeah, I get a little concerned when certain things are tossed about....especially stuff with little substance. Especially since I am usually the one who is wading in to the "is my beer ruined because I read something that scared me like autolysis and left my beer 11 days in primary" threads because of that boogeyman.........
carnevoodoo
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But you're wrong. Revvy is a little bit much sometimes, and yeah, he's yelling a lot, but what you're saying is just incorrect.
carnevoodoo
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Tasted not too far from what it does now back in '94... I enjoy it and it aged well... it's not for eveyone!
Bleh. I have a bottle of it and I'm waiting to buy some steak so I can use it as a marinade.
beerkrump
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Revvy not yelling unless the font gets really big.
thedigitale
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Tonedef131
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It's not misinformation. You just assume any level of autolysis is bad, not necessarily the case. In the levels it's happening it's likely not even noticable or could be adding a subtle nuttiness.
As someone else mentioned bottle autolysis is desired in champagne and certain big beers and meads. I'll see if I can find the page number where George Fix discusses it.
As someone else mentioned bottle autolysis is desired in champagne and certain big beers and meads. I'll see if I can find the page number where George Fix discusses it.
thedigitale
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Actually my argument that autolysis can be positive in the bottle is saying that both of you are wrong.
It does autolysis, but it's not always a bad thing.
Filtering the yeast does not help improve shelf life.
beerkrump
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def - twice you said that the yeasties "are doing nothing but autolyzing". Remaining dormant is something. If all the yeast is doing is autolyzing, how can we scavenge yeast from bottles? Also, you are including information in post #24 that was missed in post #2 that would have helped some one with five posts (the OP) understand the rarity of this issue in home brewing.
Yes, we know Revvy can be verbose and grating, but he is thorough.
Yes, we know Revvy can be verbose and grating, but he is thorough.
I could be wrong, but I thought there was still a lot of cleaning up the yeast does over time to contribute to the aging. Especially since there is such a small amount of yeast. I figured it would take a loooong time for the yeast to start dying off and breaking down.
Tonedef131
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How's that work? My point was that it can happen in the bottle.
Yeah I already said that.
Maybe not filtering in particular, but a centrifuge or other means of yeast removal can be helpful in delicate beers where possible yeast flavor contributions are undesirable.
Okay, if dormancy is possible the yeast are doing one of two things. But don't assume just because he has a low post count he is inexperienced or uneducated about beer. There is other places to learn about beer other that one forum on the internet.
I will give Revvy credit for not posting a link to one of his own threads in this one...that is refreshing.
It has more to do with storage conditions than time. Once again this is why these are common practices for pro brewers who are shipping their beers all over the country and will have little to no control over how they will be handled/stored.
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I agree with Revvy too. Talking about autolysis in home brewing is pointless since its such a rarity. Actually unheard of in most polls. That's its hardly worth even mentioning to a noob. In fact, I believe that most people 20-30 years ago mistakenly thought it was occurring. What they probably had was infection due to a lack of sanitation or they had inferior ingredients.
The commercial need for filtering and pastuerization is purely for flavor consistency and the variable shelf-life.
Lets not start talking about problems with clear bottles... (Another commercial boneheaded idea)
The commercial need for filtering and pastuerization is purely for flavor consistency and the variable shelf-life.
Lets not start talking about problems with clear bottles... (Another commercial boneheaded idea)
carnevoodoo
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Possibly? But this in no way has to do with long term aging. Any beer that delicate should not be aged.
+1 to this....
That's the same with using the autolysis fallacy and using champagne and mead as an example...Just like autolysis is only a true concern to LAGERS, where any perceived flaws stand out 10 fold...If a beer or champagne for that matter is that sensitive to to something, it's not worth storing anyway.
The beers that people tend to cellar (commercial OR homebrew) are going to be pretty strong ales to begin with.
And tonedeaf...if people weren't helped by those "links to my own threads" so much, and I didn't get feed back that they actually learned from them, and were glad I took the hours that it usually took to write them, I wouldn't do it...So bite me.
Tonedef131
Well-Known Member
If you want to say it's only a true concern for lagers from a flavor stand point that is fine. I will agree that most beers being laid down are not going to be negatively effected by autolysis. But you said that it NEVER happens in bottles earlier, which is inaccurate.
We have gotten pretty far of topic. The OP thought beers only could improve with age that had yeast in them...which couldn't be further from the truth. I simply provided the aspects of brewing that tend to have the biggest impact on shelf life.
I was just kidding. Do I have to use smilies around here in order for people to be able to take a joke?
Actually you're the only one who doesn't think beers with yeast in them don't improve with age...many of us do.
....Including many commercial breweries.
Hell I think my never dump your beer thread has MANY instances of beers with yeast in them IMPROVING over time...
And many extremely strong beers NEED months or years to mellow out and become complex, isn't that NOT IMPROVING WITH AGE???
Yeast is not the bane of beers that you seem to think it is...
I still believe that POSSIBLY autolysis WAS a concern to homebrewers 20-30 years ago, when the yeast came in dry cakes, of dubious heritage and came across from where homebrewing was legalized in the hot cargo holds of ships and may have sat for months in terrible conditioned...In other words was unhealthy to begin with.
And therefore may have crapped out and made for nastiness, (and also was prone to stick fermentation as well.) and tales of it just continued to perpetuate over time, even though yeasts are much more healthy and fresh, and more is understood about them nowaday....people gravitate to the negative and fear and still perpetuate those worries...over and over ad over....
And I still maintain that as much as I like Palmer, he contributed to the hysteria.....I mean noone but me seems to notice that that section on the scary autolysis appears in the chapter on lagering. He is not talking about it with ales...or beers in general..just lagers..because flaws are more perceptable in lagers...since in essence most commercial lagers are tasteless...anything would stand out..
and I think most new brewers have crapped themselves at the mere thought long before the notice the closer to the section either.
Although were talking about bottles and not the usual long primary stuff....this paragraph gets swallowed up in all the fear hysteria....
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Another point to add to this it was more common to let it sit on the yeast for a longer time. But thats the nature of lagering and diacetyl rests.
Stirs up the hysteria due to ignorance. The incessant need to rack after 5-7 days.
Tonedef131
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So your telling me you think these beers would not improve with age if the yeast wasn't present? I am not saying everyone should rack beers right away, leaving beer on the yeast cake during fermentation is a totally different discussion and has no place within this one. I am talking about in the bottle only.
Read the line of mine you quoted. The OP thought beers could ONLY improve with age if yeast was present in the bottle. Mellowing is due to many different things happening within a beer, and yeast doesn't need to be present for a beer to mellow. Once the yeast in the bottle is done eating the priming sugar it will drop out of solution and have very little if anything to do with the "mellowing" happening within the beer. After years of sitting in the bottle the yeast in the bottom are either A) doing nothing B) autolyzing. This is what I said in my first post, perhaps I wasn't clear about that but I meant that if they are doing anything after long term aging it's autolysis.
Autolysis is not a 4 letter word, it is not always bad, and we don't have to freak out every time someone brings it up at an appropriate time during a discussion.
yermej
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I probably shouldn't jump in here, but bourbon's good stuff. (It's a hell of a drink.)
Though it may not be all that applicable to beginner brewing knowledge, autolysis is important to know about. It does happen in the bottle. Perhaps more important is the amount of autolyzing yeast. Apparently in low levels autolysis adds the bready, biscuity, mouth-feely qualities that are often desired in sparkling wines and perhaps in certain beers (though most articles focus on wines). At higher levels, the enzymes that result from autolysis cause the **** flavors that most brewers associate with autolysis.
That is, it's not so much that large amounts of autolysis are more noticeable, but that they lead to a different chemical process that doesn't occur with small amounts of autolysis.
Anyway, thanks for all the arguing. I actually learned something as a result.
[citation needed]? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolysis_(wine)
Yeah, it's wikipedia, but it's a decent start. There are quite a few papers out there as well if you want to get all pedantic (which I would do if I hadn't been drinking already).
Though it may not be all that applicable to beginner brewing knowledge, autolysis is important to know about. It does happen in the bottle. Perhaps more important is the amount of autolyzing yeast. Apparently in low levels autolysis adds the bready, biscuity, mouth-feely qualities that are often desired in sparkling wines and perhaps in certain beers (though most articles focus on wines). At higher levels, the enzymes that result from autolysis cause the **** flavors that most brewers associate with autolysis.
That is, it's not so much that large amounts of autolysis are more noticeable, but that they lead to a different chemical process that doesn't occur with small amounts of autolysis.
Anyway, thanks for all the arguing. I actually learned something as a result.
[citation needed]? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolysis_(wine)
Yeah, it's wikipedia, but it's a decent start. There are quite a few papers out there as well if you want to get all pedantic (which I would do if I hadn't been drinking already).
beerkrump
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If it wasn't possible, there would not be dry yeast . Maybe no yeast because it could not rely on dormancy to make it through harsh times.
Your first post never used the word 'years' or 'long term'. It was just 'doing nothing but autolyzing'. Again, the point of a lot of this is not the information, but that fact that you refrain from qualifying some of your comments.
We seem to agree that autolysis happens. It is a natural process and is what happens when an organisms cellular structure is broken down by its own enzymes. This does not happen to healthy yeast cells that have completed their life cycle, but rather cells that have died before that natural end. So, for autolysis to occur, your yeast must have been stressed and killed. If you are using healthy yeast, do not severely over pitch, and maintain a proper environment throughout the life of your beer, you've nothing to fear.
If you have the forethought and patience, you can store your beer for a decade under proper conditions and have no fear of your brew being ruined by autolysis.
+1,000,000,000 to ALL you said....All Four paragraphs....I read his first parargraph to be "you can't store your beer, it WILL autolysise and your beer will taste like ****."
Which is patently absurd...which I said originally and offered Charlie Papazians quite contrary opinion.
And I guess I wasn't the only one who noticed it as well.......
I said it earlier, but you said it better...autolysis is not the inevitable end of healthy yeast. It is the unnatural end that is a product of yeast health...like peritinitus or even cancer in us....it is an abberation....UNHEALTHY AND STRESSED yeast autolyse... but rarely do we have unhealthy yeast these days, most of the yeast we pitch is fresh...and unless we are making a huge beer, even underpitching will not NECESSARILY produce stressed out yeast. Or stressed out yeast that will automatically autlolyse....
In fact you can buy HEALTHY dead yest in most health food stores and even in brewshops nowadays as a boil addition as a yeast energizers.... those diatary suppliment head yeast are NOT autloysised cells....If you want autolysed yeast, get thee some vegemite....
There's a bit of a difference between dead yeast hulls, and vegemite.....
Here's Palmers description of Yeast hulls;
So Palmer is saying we add autlolysed cells to our boil...or dead cells???
I believe there's a difference.
This is a good article on using yeast hulls for stuck fermentations in winemakeing and I know it;s used in brewing as well...
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Wine/Resources/problemfermentationandyeasthulls.htm
beerkrump
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I have my moments...
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