The perfect IPA. need your thoughts.

Hey guys, tomorrow, i am heading to my LHBS to pick up the ingredients for an IPA. This will be my 3rd 5 gallon batch. So far I've used only the Brewers Best kits.

The other night, my girlfriend and I tried Flying Dog's Snake Dog IPA and LOVED it! it had an IBU rating of 60, so I want to shoot for that. I went to the IPA section of the recipes forum and noticed that the DFH 60 clone was the most popular. Should I try my hand at this or is there another recipe out there that might be closer to the Flying Dog's?

I think I might want to stick to the extract/specialty grain level for now, but wouldnt mind a partial mash (like in DeathBrewer's sticky) if that would dramatically improve it..

Thanks!

Plenty of folks have brewed Yoops's DFH60 clone. You may also want to take a look at EdWort's Wounded Knee IPA.

Let's see if I can be of some assistance. Flying Dog's website says of Snake Dog:

ABV:7.1%
Plato:15
IBU's:60
Specialty Malts:120L Crystal Malt
Hops:Warrior, Columbus
Process:Dry hopped with Columbus hops

That means it's pretty easy to do this with extract/steep techniques. We need pale malt and 120L crystal malt to 15 degrees Plato or OG 1.062. It's described elsewhere as having a "deep red" or "copper" color, which gives more data: that's between 9 and 14 SRM. I see more references to "red" than "copper", so I'll err on the high side.

Warrior is a relatively new high-alpha bittering hops variety, averaging ~16%AA. Columbus - also marketed by Yakima Chief as Tomahawk - is another high-alpha variety, averaging about the same. Flying Dog calls this beer their "hop monster". It contains both varieties in the boil and is dry-hopped with Columbus.

So, let's see if we can't get close.

Malt:

6.5 lbs Briess Gold DME
8 oz Briess 120L Crystal Malt

OG: 1.062 SRM: 12

Hops: (all pellets, presumed in full boil or late-addition extract)

0.5 oz Warrior @ 16%AA - 60
0.5 oz Columbus @ 16%AA - 20
0.5 oz Columbus @ 16%AA - 5
1.0 oz Columbus @ 16%AA - dry hop

IBU: ~60

Now, getting that ABV out of that gravity is going to be really, really hard. In order to hit 7% ABV, you need to get the final gravity down to ~1.010. From 1.062 to 1.010 is approximately 84% attenuation, which is difficult to achieve with homebrew yeasts. You're going to want to pitch a lot of yeast, also. Thankfully, there is a pretty easy way to accomplish this. Nottingham dry ale yeast in the 11g packet is a high attenuator already; if you pitch two packets (rehydrated according to instructions on the sachet), you should be fine.

Again, this is just off the top of my head, more thinking aloud than anything. It's really only to illustrate how I'd approach replicating the beer. YMMV.

Good luck!

Bob

NQ3X said:

Let's see if I can be of some assistance. Flying Dog's website says of Snake Dog:

ABV:7.1%
Plato:15
IBU's:60
Specialty Malts:120L Crystal Malt
Hops:Warrior, Columbus
Process:Dry hopped with Columbus hops

That means it's pretty easy to do this with extract/steep techniques. We need pale malt and 120L crystal malt to 15 degrees Plato or OG 1.062. It's described elsewhere as having a "deep red" or "copper" color, which gives more data: that's between 9 and 14 SRM. I see more references to "red" than "copper", so I'll err on the high side.

Warrior is a relatively new high-alpha bittering hops variety, averaging ~16%AA. Columbus - also marketed by Yakima Chief as Tomahawk - is another high-alpha variety, averaging about the same. Flying Dog calls this beer their "hop monster". It contains both varieties in the boil and is dry-hopped with Columbus.

So, let's see if we can't get close.

Malt:

6.5 lbs Briess Gold DME
8 oz Briess 120L Crystal Malt

OG: 1.062 SRM: 12

Hops: (all pellets, presumed in full boil or late-addition extract)

0.5 oz Warrior @ 16%AA - 60
0.5 oz Columbus @ 16%AA - 20
0.5 oz Columbus @ 16%AA - 5
1.0 oz Columbus @ 16%AA - dry hop

IBU: ~60

Now, getting that ABV out of that gravity is going to be really, really hard. In order to hit 7% ABV, you need to get the final gravity down to ~1.010. From 1.062 to 1.010 is approximately 84% attenuation, which is difficult to achieve with homebrew yeasts. You're going to want to pitch a lot of yeast, also. Thankfully, there is a pretty easy way to accomplish this. Nottingham dry ale yeast in the 11g packet is a high attenuator already; if you pitch two packets (rehydrated according to instructions on the sachet), you should be fine.

Again, this is just off the top of my head, more thinking aloud than anything. It's really only to illustrate how I'd approach replicating the beer. YMMV.

Good luck!

Bob

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WOW! now ya see?! this really blows my mind! I dont know how long it took you to research and come up with this, but your kindness is greatly appreciated! This will be exactly what I bring with me to my LHBS tomorrow, and I'll keep you posted as to how it turns out.

Not that you haven't already done enough, but answer me this: My biggest pot is 16qt so I can only do a 1/2 boil. How would you recommend I go about adding the hops throughout?

Thanks again for this, Im really excited now that I have something to go off of.

Add the hops just as planned. Do a late extract addition - where you reserve the lion's share, say 75%, of your extract until the very end. That will lower your wort gravity and give you full alpha-acids extraction.

And it doesn't take much to figure stuff like this out. Experience helps immensely, and I flatter myself I've got a bit of that.

Steep your cracked crystal malt in a cheesecloth bag in about a gallon of hot water - if you can hold the water at ~155degF, that's perfect - then put the bag in a colander and rinse the grain with slightly hotter water until you collect 2 gallons of liquor in the kettle. You should be able to safely boil 2 gallons in your pot; boil that with 2 lbs of extract and follow the hops schedule. Add the rest of the extract at flameout, chill however you do it, and dilute the concentrated wort in your fermenter.

Good luck!

Bob

NQ3X said:

Add the hops just as planned. Do a late extract addition - where you reserve the lion's share, say 75%, of your extract until the very end. That will lower your wort gravity and give you full alpha-acids extraction.

And it doesn't take much to figure stuff like this out. Experience helps immensely, and I flatter myself I've got a bit of that.

Steep your cracked crystal malt in a cheesecloth bag in about a gallon of hot water - if you can hold the water at ~155degF, that's perfect - then put the bag in a colander and rinse the grain with slightly hotter water until you collect 2 gallons of liquor in the kettle. You should be able to safely boil 2 gallons in your pot; boil that with 2 lbs of extract and follow the hops schedule. Add the rest of the extract at flameout, chill however you do it, and dilute the concentrated wort in your fermenter.

Good luck!

Bob

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Oh god what a moron i am! the 60, 20, 5, and dry hop, WAS the hop schedule in minutes.. sorry about that, me act slow sometimes ok, time to hop to it!! thanks Bob!

fretsforlife said:

ok, time to hop to it!! thanks Bob!

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By the way, there was absolutely no pun intended there.

That you didn't claim it lessens my respect for you.

Always claim puns. Always.

NQ3X said:

That you didn't claim it lessens my respect for you.

Always claim puns. Always.

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I'll redeem it with a perfect IPA.. just you wait!

A wealth of knowledge Bob is...based my wit off of his recommendations through out several threads that he had posted in and it turned out great! So, thanks Bob!

Hey fretsforlife -- I double dog dare you to ask Bob why you should pitch two packs of yeast instead of one.

Get out your yeast cell calculator!

good recipe Bob - and frets, let us know how it turns out. Warrior is my favorite bitter hop, and I love Columbus too -- but have never tried them together.

AZ_IPA said:

Hey fretsforlife -- I double dog dare you to ask Bob why you should pitch two packs of yeast instead of one.

Get out your yeast cell calculator!

good recipe Bob - and frets, let us know how it turns out. Warrior is my favorite bitter hop, and I love Columbus too -- but have never tried them together.

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You got it, I'll let ya know every step of the way. Oh and Bob... uh.,. so...why should., i mean why should i pitch 2., uh nevermind...

NQ3X said:

That you didn't claim it lessens my respect for you.

Always claim puns. Always.

Click to expand...

Maddox might disagree on that one.

Maddox, whoever he is, is a poop.

What I meant was if someone groans at your pun, smirk. Not, "Didja catch that, sparky? Huh? Didja?"



[reads further up thread]

Wow. I'm just a guy - currently suffering from insomnia because some %#!@ called my mobile at 0315 - trying to help.

Now go study yeast management.

Bob

Ok, So I brewed this up this weekend. It went well for the most part, but I still made some dumb mistakes.. here's how I did it.

They only sold Briess Gold DME by the 3lb bag, so i had to get two of those plus a one pound bag of Munton's Extra Light DME (they didnt sell Briess by the 1lb) .

Now we originally planned to use the Nottingham, however the guys at the store swore by the SafAle US-05 (#56). They said for an IPA, that was they way to go. Also, they said 2 packets of this particular strain wouldn't be necessary. What was a noob to do? I left with the #56. Do you think this was an ok alternative?

I followed the recipe to plan except for one mistake that I am just now realizing I made. I should have ended up with a half pound of DME leftover, instead it all went in the pot bringing the total to 7lbs. How much might this change our final product?

I followed the Hop/Irish Moss/DME schedule to a T, chilled the wort to about 75-80º rather quickly while stirring the whole time and strained it to the bucket. I then topped it off to the 5 gallon mark and made mistake #2. I never really aerated properly.

A couple hours before brewing i boiled about a pint of water with some DME and pitched the yeast in at around 75º. This was my first time hydrating. I know its good to let it sit for a couple days, but my schedule wouldnt allow. I pitched the entire contents and covered.

The OG came out to 1.064 (probably would have been dead on if not for the extra DME)

I finished at around 10pm saturday night, and now here we are monday at 6pm and there has been little to no activity at all. I hooked a blow-off up to my bucket to avoid blowing the lid like last time, and only saw bubbles for about 10 minutes today after i gently moved it while checking the temp (66º)..

I know better than to trust the bubbles, but my theory is that im off to a slow start because for one, I didnt aerate properly and two, the yeast didnt have ample time to reproduce? what do you think? I havent used this strain before and know nothing about it. or maybe, I should have just went ahead and pitched 2 packets in the first place

Thats all for now, I will keep you all posted as time progresses..

Thanks!

Most dry yeasts don't require significant aeration - the granules have got plenty of the stuff yeast get from aeration built in at the factory.

I'm stunned that the LHBS staff are so stupid. In the first place, only an idiot will turn down a sale - unless, of course, the customer is planning something horribly stupid, which pitching two packets of yeast is not. Second, they should know about yeast management. They probably think a smack-pack of Wyeast 1056 without a starter is a good idea, too. [facepalm]

On the other hand, they're not exactly wrong about the S-05. It's a great yeast, though I don't think it's going to attenuate enough to do what you want. (Especially since they talked you into not spending another couple of bucks, the *****es.)

Don't sweat the bubbles. I don't even seal my Ale Pails - I replaced the lids with clear Plexiglas sheets large enough to completely cover the buckets. I can see in and monitor progress, and I don't have to wrestle with stupid, impossible-to-remove $&#!!ing bucket lids. (Can you tell I really hate them? Have done ever since I stabbed myself in the palm with a screwdriver trying to open one.)

You'll be fine. Just assiduously monitor the ferment. When the krauesen starts to fall, take a gravity and let us know where you are.

Cheers!

Bob

Gotta love it when Bob's reading and responding to your thread - you know you'll learn something and feel good about your brew despite small errors.

The extra 1/2 lb DME will just just make your beer a (very small) touch darker and stronger; nothing to sweat over. I've forgotten aeration once, and it delayed the ferment, but it still fired off; and the brew still tasted good. I'm sure it will be fine. Plus, I'm also sure you'll never forget to aerate again (I haven't).

In the end, you'll be enjoying the beer, and tweaking your process for the next time. Couldn't get much better than that!

Probably did yourself a favor adding that extra .5 lb. of DME since you used the US-05. It doesn't attenuate as well as the Nottingham so the extra DME will get you closer to your 7%, although like Bob said...probably not going to happen. Maybe a temp bump to 70 or so after 6 or 7 days would help get you closer.

05 is a good yeast - I think the pack says to just sprinkle on the wort, no hydration neccessary.

Since you rigged a blow-off right away (good move with a 1.060+ beer), I wouldn't be too concerned.

Like Bob says - check the hydro in a few days and see where you're at. My guess is you'll be down in the 1.015 range before you know it!

fretsforlife said:

A couple hours before brewing i boiled about a pint of water with some DME and pitched the yeast in at around 75º. This was my first time hydrating. I know its good to let it sit for a couple days, but my schedule wouldnt allow. I pitched the entire contents and covered.

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I think you did good, just wanted to note that you don't want to make a starter with dry yeast, or let it sit for a couple days. You can just put it on top the wort, but proper re-hydration does give you more viable cells.

I have to be honest here. I like advice from my LHBS but cannot ****ing stand when they try to change a recipe that I walk in there with. Especially since by the time I walk in to buy ingredients I know exactly what the hell I am looking for.

On the bright side, you'll have about 10 packets worth of yeast slurry when all is said and done at the bottom of your bucket. Stay sanitary on transfer/bottling day and then scoop some of that slurry into a jar for another day. Or you can even wash it by following the simple instructions in Bernie Brewer's Yeast Washing Illustrated.

S-05 is a good yeast. Clean, attenuative, flocculant. Produces a great APA/IPA. Good to keep some around.

Also, more DME = more gravity = more fun

NQ3X said:

Most dry yeasts don't require significant aeration - the granules have got plenty of the stuff yeast get from aeration built in at the factory.

I'm stunned that the LHBS staff are so stupid. In the first place, only an idiot will turn down a sale - unless, of course, the customer is planning something horribly stupid, which pitching two packets of yeast is not. Second, they should know about yeast management. They probably think a smack-pack of Wyeast 1056 without a starter is a good idea, too. [facepalm]

On the other hand, they're not exactly wrong about the S-05. It's a great yeast, though I don't think it's going to attenuate enough to do what you want. (Especially since they talked you into not spending another couple of bucks, the *****es.)

Don't sweat the bubbles. I don't even seal my Ale Pails - I replaced the lids with clear Plexiglas sheets large enough to completely cover the buckets. I can see in and monitor progress, and I don't have to wrestle with stupid, impossible-to-remove $&#!!ing bucket lids. (Can you tell I really hate them? Have done ever since I stabbed myself in the palm with a screwdriver trying to open one.)

You'll be fine. Just assiduously monitor the ferment. When the krauesen starts to fall, take a gravity and let us know where you are.

Cheers!

Bob

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Yeah, being the new guy makes me a bit of a pushover at the LHBS. A few batches more and ill be able to hold my own in there Its good to know I'm still afloat..I'll take another reading this weekend and let you know where it stands.

Thanks everyone else for your responses and encouragement, it really puts my mind at ease here.

Well today is a very exciting day in that the suspense is over. After one full week, I cracked the lid open. I was immediately hit in the face with the smell of hops and alcohol which was a relief since there was almost no visible activity all week. There was very little krausen around the bucket compared to my first 2 batches. Instead there was a blanket of marsh mellow-like foam across the surface that crackled when i parted it to take a reading.



The reading was 1.014 which I'm pretty happy with so far. Even if this turns out to be my F.G., it'd put my abv% around 6.7ish which is not bad for my first IPA attempt i guess. What really lifted my spirits though was tasting the sample, man was it good! I was instantly reminded of the Snake Dog.

I figure I'll give it another week, then rack and dry hop, which brings me to my next Q: Do I put the hops in first and then rack on top of them? or the other way around, or does it even matter at all? thanks!

Q: Do I put the hops in first and then rack on top of them? or the other way around, or does it even matter at all? thanks!

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I don't think it matters. They sit in the beer for 7 or so days regardless. I always drop my hop bag in after racking. I highly recommend putting them in a hop bag, so you can take them out easily if you decide to leave the beer in secondary for a bit longer. I've read 5-7 days is the peak point for dry-hopping; leaving them in too long and you begin to run the risk of getting vegetal flavors that aren't desirable.

leghorn said:

I don't think it matters. They sit in the beer for 7 or so days regardless. I always drop my hop bag in after racking. I highly recommend putting them in a hop bag, so you can take them out easily if you decide to leave the beer in secondary for a bit longer. I've read 5-7 days is the peak point for dry-hopping; leaving them in too long and you begin to run the risk of getting vegetal flavors that aren't desirable.

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thanks! I'll be sure to pick up a hop bag..