Making NA beer (ya I know whats the point)

I have read many threads about NA beer and personally don’t drink the stuff unless I have to. Most of the ideas include heating the beer in an open container to above pasteurization temps to drive off the alcohol. I dislike these ideas for a couple of reasons. The temp needed can change the flavor of the beer and the open container exposes the beer to O2 which we all know is not good for finished beer stability or shelf life. In an effort to give a buddy of mine who is a recovered alcoholic his beloved beverage back to him I have devised a method that takes both of these concerns out of the process.

The theory: Simple distillation using vacuum instead of temperature. Liquids under vacuum boil at low temps. Different liquids even when mixed have different boil points. In other words alcohol will boil off before water will, and at a different temp. Liquids boiled in an enclosed container and vacuum are not subject to O2 absorption.

The equipment: A long stem thermometer, and enclosed container like a 2-3L flask, a 2 hole rubber stopper to fit the flask, a vacuum pump. Tubing to connect the pump to the flask. I have used 2 different types of vacuum pumps. An air conditioning vacuum pump and a nebulizer air pump that I reversed the flapper valves in. AC pumps have the advantage of being able to dial in desired vacuum.

The setup and operation: Beer that is uncarbed and at room temp is put into the flask leaving head space for foaming. The stopper is installed and thermometer is installed in one hole with the tip in the beer. The tubing is installed through the stopper keeping it in the headspace. The pump is turned on and the temp is monitored. The amount of vacuum determines the boil off temps and time taken to achieve the process. I suggest doing this with water first so the boil point of water is determined for your vacuum setting. With low vacuum the temp will rise a little and plateau. At this point the alcohol is being boiled off. When the temp begins to rise again the alcohol is gone and the water is warming up to a boil. Stop. You now have uncarbed NA beer. Transfer the beer to a 2-3L plastic soda bottle and install a carb cap. Cool and force carb the beer with a max pressure of 25psi. Give to your buddy for his enjoyment.

Notes: Although the beer will visibly start to boil when the water is boiling you usually won’t see boiling until the alcohol is gone at low vacuum. Low vacuum is less than 10 in HG. High vacuum is up to 30in HG. Low vacuum will take longer but gives more control over the process. Either way the process is complete in less than 1 hour. The beer does taste a little different, after all alcohol affects flavor.

The Test: I was designated driver one night for a bunch of buddies and I had consumed almost 4L of this beer. We rolled into a DUI check point and the cop smelled beer on all of us myself included. After a field sobriety test, and 2 breath tests I was released to continue driving.

beerthirty said:

I was designated driver one night for a bunch of buddies and I had consumed almost 4L of this beer...

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Wow!!!!
4 liters of beer? How many times did you have to water the lawn?
Anyways, great experiment. What type of beer was this? Did you experience any extra carmelization with the boiling? I know it was at a lower temp, but it was still boiling, right?

When I read the subject I thought you meant North American beer. This looks like a great way to do it. What do you do with the alcohol condensate when it returns to atmospheric pressure?

Many times but I didn't have to prop myself up nor did I pee on my shoes. This can be done with any beer. Its the heat that causes carmelization not the boiling. Boiling temp for my setup is about 80*F.

diatonic said:

When I read the subject I thought you meant North American beer. This looks like a great way to do it. What do you do with the alcohol condensate when it returns to atmospheric pressure?

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It drips out of the bottom of the pump. I thought about collecting it but was afraid of what it might have picked up on the way through the pump. Its only a couple shots anyway.

pictures? I'd like to see how this looks

I hate to say it but this still counts as distillation. I think its technically illegal but don't let the stop you I don't think its the least bit unethical.

Awesome DIY ingenuity! It's amazing what you can do with some scavenged parts and a basic knowledge of physics.

Next time I set it up I will be sure to click a few. I've been busy the last couple weeks on a new brew rig and I'm trying to get it going for next weeks brew off.

k1v1116 said:

I hate to say it but this still counts as distillation. I think its technically illegal but don't let the stop you I don't think its the least bit unethical.

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As stated in the OP. In my defense the distillate is not kept(as stated in post #5) which is counter to the purpose of distillation.

true but as I understand it and I may be wrong, any device that is capable of boiling a liquid and condensing the vapors is a still and all stills have to be licensed (although I think I read something about a cut off point in size maybe under a gallon?).
If you don't want to drink the distillate because of purity concerns ethanol is still a great solvent it seems a waste not to use it as cleaning fluid or at least lighter fluid.

beerthirty said:

As stated in the OP. In my defense the distillate is not kept(as stated in post #5) which is counter to the purpose of distillation.

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Yes... you aren't distilling alcohol... you're de-alcohol-izing a fermented beverage.
:cross:

And k1v... not to be a smart-alec because I think you bring up a valid point... but I think a *more* valid point is..... "who cares?"... nobody's going to knock down his door for making non-alcoholic beer... It would be interesting to write to the DEA and get their opinion on it though... not that the OP should do that... they might come knocking on his door.. but maybe a neighbor could write the letter for him... ;-)

I agree I think even if you were collecting and drinking the distillate odds are strongly against anyone bothering you unless you tried to sell the stuff. I could also be completely wrong about the legality of it, until recently I though freeze concentrating beer was illegal but I found out I was wrong.

Thanks Sir Humps, that was my feelings on it since the distillate is not the end product or kept.

K1, distillation

1. the volatilization or evaporation and subsequent condensation of a liquid, as when water is boiled in a retort and the steam is condensed in a cool receiver(no receiver). 2. the purification or concentration of a substance(this process is the oposite of concentration), the obtaining of the essence(essence is not obtained but separated for disposal) or volatile properties contained in it, or the separation of one substance from another, by such a process(I'm busted here). 3. a product of distilling; distillate(distillate is the essence not collected) . 4. the act or fact of distilling or the state of being distilled(See #3). According to these definitions it appears that collection of the distillate is what defines distillation. I'm no lawyer but I think the easy work around would be to increase the temp that the pump environment was in thereby preventing condensation and releasing the vapor to the air. But since I'm not trying to start a business or do this large scale( just the occasional 2L for a friend) I'm not too worried about getting caught with a puddle in the garage. I think this more to what is happening here but I like your idea of exhausting the pump exhaust onto a flame to burn the distillate vapor. The lack of distillate collection should make it legal to all but Elliot Ness.

Those definitions do more to convince me that it *is* distilling. In the first definition, you underlined something from the last part of the definition which came after the word "as", indicating that it's an example of how it might be done, not a definitive description as part of the definition. It'd be like saying, "the game of horseshoes is often played in wide open areas, such as a backyard or a park". Obviously, everything after "as" is meant as an example, not part of the definition. In the second definition, it gives three different ways of distilling, separated by "or" meaning if you meet any one of the three, then it's distilling. Anyway though, you're not going to get busted. Just be careful how you talk about the process and to whom you mention it.

You know though... you could create a torch on your system that burns off the vapor before it condenses. That would keep you legal...
It might also singe your eyebrows and make a fantastic fireball out of your garage!

(I think I'd just let it puddle up on the floor instead :cross: )

Does the temp of the beer even raise?
Basically your dealing with vapor pressure not so much temp. Alcohol has a much lower vapor pressure than water so as you stated low vacuum should do it.
It should also be dependant on the temp of the beer your starting with as cold beer would require more vacuum.

CatchinZs said:

Does the temp of the beer even raise?
Basically your dealing with vapor pressure not so much temp. Alcohol has a much lower vapor pressure than water so as you stated low vacuum should do it.
It should also be dependant on the temp of the beer your starting with as cold beer would require more vacuum.

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Usually not when the alcohol is vaporizing, the temp will rise a little when the water begins vaporizing, which is the sign the alcohol is gone. In the Op I stated starting with room temp beer that was uncarbonated, carbonated beer should drop the temp until the CO2 was gone since it is normally a gas at atmospheric pressure. I haven't done this enough nor am I a scientist enough to tell all the answers, just what seems to make sense to my high school and trade school educated mind. I do appreciate the questions as it makes me think a bit harder about the process and how it works.

Humps, ya I saw that when I reread the def. Let me underline some other areas and then you can rebuff.

Based solely on the physics of the process, the temperature of the beer should drop as the alcohol boils off. As matter changes phase from solid to liquid or liquid to gas latent energy is required for the phase change... so essentially, for the alcohol to boil it must use heat from the fluid. It's the reason you get frost on your propane tank as you use it... as the propane changes from a liquid to a gas it drops the temperature of the liquid propane. Same principle that air conditioners and refrigerators work on, except with a refrigerant. I doubt that the small amount of alcohol vaporizing is enough to noticeably change the temperature of the beer, but you can bet on a small scale it does!

Diatonic, that is why I start with room temp beer. It is the temp change that signals the alcohol is gone and water is now being boiled off. It makes perfect sense what you say and following the same reason there should be a further drop when the water starts to boil but I have experienced a slight rise and have seen the water begin to boil. I'm just guessing here but perhaps as the pump gets hot or water vapor enters it I lose a bit of vacuum changing the relevant boil temp. This is unknown because I have not tracked the vacuum.

Great post. I know some guys who'd love to have a few extra nightcaps while hanging out in the garage and still be able to drive home (safely). This could provide just the thing. I'd love to see pics of your stuff, especially your pump set-up.

I was wondering about the same thing today, as I would like to take a alcohol break every once in a while, but I do love my beer and the amazing flavors. I would also like to see your setup. It may technically be considered a still, but I would not worry too much.
Great Idea.

I think a pressure cooker would be a good vessel to perform this in. Already designed to seal air tight so that shouldn't be a problem. And already designed to be directly heated so that shouldn't be an issue either.

I'm hoping to get some pics up tomorrow evening. I'm busy on some other project lately.
Phlyan, It might work if you have an old one. A lot of newer pressure cookers have a lock that is pressure activated, and if its not locked pressure vents to atmosphere so you wouldn't be able to pull a vacuum. In my setup no heat is used so heat tolerance doesn't matter.

I may have to give this some thought. For what it is worth I made a case of NA for my brother-in-law using the heat it method(pan in oven on lowest setting for 1.5 hours) and kept a bottle to compare to the other half batch. I also used a french press to make a hop tea to add back some of the aroma and flavor that I feared would be lost during heating. While I could tell some minor differences, side by side a friend of mine who tasted blindly without knowing what I was letting him taste said he could not tell a difference.

So I have two questions, does the vacuum method still have the potential to boil off some of the volatiles from the hops and did you do anything to add them back.

Edit: Oh, and is seems like if you wanted to do a whole 5 G batch you could vacuum the gas-in side of a corny keg if you remove the popit and plug the liqued out to prevent air from sucking in.

When I first started thinking of this method I was worried that volatile oils would boil before the alcohol. I asked a few knowledgeable members on here, but no one seemed to know what the boil point of hop oils were and I couldn't seem to find the info anywhere. I used a pale ale low in late addtions. I wasn't to concerned with losing bitterness because I felt(guessed) that the isomerization process chemically changed these oils and bound it better to the beer. Yes, the cornie idea has buzzed through my mind but I don't want make that much beer without alcohol. Just switch the top to a fermenting top so you can put the thermometer where the airlock would sit.

camiller said:

Edit: Oh, and is seems like if you wanted to do a whole 5 G batch you could vacuum the gas-in side of a corny keg if you remove the popit and plug the liqued out to prevent air from sucking in.

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Will a corny seal under vacuum? I just got 2 of them and haven't changed the seals yet but they only seal under pressure. At 0 pressure they leak liquid.

Good point, PhylanPan. The corny keg will not be a likely candidate for a vaccum.

bdavanza said:

Good point, PhylanPan. The corny keg will not be a likely candidate for a vaccum.

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An unmodified corny keg.... You would probably need to replace the lid with a plate/gasket combo on top. It could probably be made to work pretty easily.

Well, I don't know... A corny keg wouldn't hold pressure if it wasn't sealed... so its sealed period. The only disadvantage is the vacuum would pull down on the lid and eventually it would cause the rubber gasket to break seal. A seal is a seal. No transfer in or out should work, in theory. It's still not optimal, and per what camiller said, you could probably modify it. I'm curious about this idea as well, my brother won't drink alcohol but likes beer and would love to taste my brews. I'm gonna have to think this one over, if you can get some pics!

pompeiisneaks said:

Well, I don't know... A corny keg wouldn't hold pressure if it wasn't sealed... so its sealed period. The only disadvantage is the vacuum would pull down on the lid and eventually it would cause the rubber gasket to break seal. A seal is a seal.

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On mine, the pressure is what creates the seal. As soon as I let all the pressure out of them they leaked sanitizer all over my kitchen floor. But like I said, I haven't changed the lid seal yet. But yes, modified it should be able to hold vacuum which would be a very good solution.

For pump (seal) longevity, it might not be a bad idea to use a condenser and cold trap before the pump. This would, of course, have the added benefit that if *do* decide to use the distillate for making schnapps or something, it won't have been fouled by the pump lubricants.

Sorry guys I was busy all day working on the new brew trailer. I went to take some pics of both the trailer and pump setup and found my camera's battery completely dead. It won't even take a charge. A new battery is on order and I'm expecting it in a couple days. I promise pics, although the pump setup is completely basic and not really noteworthy.
GN, good idea if you wanted to keep the distillate. I have used this pump with a trap in the past to change oil in lawn mowers and other small equipment so I know the innards of the pump are contaminated with petroleum.

If you were worried about losing hop aromatics, you could do the vacuum distilling before dry hopping it. With no alcohol, you're not going to get quite the same flavor out of the hops, but you should still get something.

Guys,
I'm pretty sure that this constitutes "distilling". I'm sure the ATF won't boot door over it. But, the most important thing is that when you distiill alcohol from any mash, wash, or "beer" as it's called in some areas, you throw out the first 4-5 oz (or foreshots). This contains all the nasty stuff like methanol. It's what causes all the horror stories you've heard about where people went blind from drinking moonshine. Don't drink it, not even a taste. Just out of curiosity, did it smell like aviation fuel? Luck - Dwain

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Tis illegal according to the ATF website to distill period. Gotta have a license even for innocuous purposes or you could get yourself into deep doo-doo. It's all about money. Not about alcohol. It's a huge revenue base taxing liquor. If everyone made their own the govt would be out a crap-load of money.

Folks... this is NOT distillation. If it was, I would be in deep trouble for making my vodka pasta sauce. I'd have shock troops busting down my door as soon as it came up to a bubble.

Distillation is the volatilization or evaporation and subsequent condensation of a liquid

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There is no "subsequent condensation" of any liquid here, and if there is, it's purely incidental. And other people have mentioned ways to prevent this incidental condensation from ever happening.

Hopaholic said:

Folks... this is NOT distillation. If it was, I would be in deep trouble for making my vodka pasta sauce. I'd have shock troops busting down my door as soon as it came up to a bubble.

There is no "subsequent condensation" of any liquid here, and if there is, it's purely incidental. And other people have mentioned ways to prevent this incidental condensation from ever happening.

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"It isn't illegal because that would make what I do illegal."

Interesting argument.

There is condensation occurring, but he isn't collecting it. Whether or not that is technically illegal would depend on the exact wording of the applicable laws. Either way, I don't think he really has to worry about it.

OK you guys, enough with the freakin distillation derailment, let's see some pictures!

one last shot across the "legal" "illegal" bow. I've been brewing beer in Utah where its illegal. Noone in utah has ever been arrested for homebrewing, afaik. Yes it may be illegal, but it doesn't matter, because the ATF has much bigger fish to fry than someone making distillate on the side of something they do, never collecting it or using it, and discarding it. They try and stop people that are making money or hurting others w/ their illegal activities. Gladly Utah is about to make homebrewing legal, but I've never been to worried about it.