Simple change, VAST efficiency increases

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Owly055

Owly055

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I do BIAB, and sometimes "sparge" the bag if my volume comes up a bit short. My sparging technique has been to carefully pour hot water over the bag to saturate the grain, leave it sit for awhile, then squeeze.

Brewer's Friend has a default efficiency of 75%, and I always beat it.......normally hitting the low to mid 80s, and occasionally hitting 90 or so.

The last two brews I've hit phenomenal OG numbers. BF called for 1.044 on this brew, and earlier this week I hit 1.055. I repeated the same brew today, and hit 1.062. I use refracometers (2 of them).

The ONLY real changes in my process were that I brewed without the bag and used the bag as a filter, and I did a dunk sparge in both cases instead of my usual "pour over". I also mashed with 2.5 gallons instead of 3.5, leaving a gallon to dunk sparge.

My dunk sparge process was to lower my bag into a pot with one gallon of hot water... about 170, and stretch the bag over the pot, then I stirred inside the bag quite a bit, making sure all the water was circulated. I then lifted the bag out and squeezed as I usually do.

My grain was carefully weighed, and my volumes were accurately measured. Process changes do not seem like they would be sufficient for such a dramatic result....... Total grain bill was only 4 pounds...2 row, wheat, rye, and Munich 20.

Today's process started out like my "inline mash".... the 30 minute mash, raising the temp from about 130 up to 155...... fast to 145, slow to 155, and then I wrapped the pot in insulation for an additional 30 minutes..... the grain was in mash range for a total of an hour. I also overshot volume, and had to boil an additional 15 minutes (to much sparging).


I rechecked my refractometer readings, and both got the same numbers the second time....


Results like this just don't make sense.................. Something's wrong here. I measure grain all the time, and am sure I didn't over shoot.......... The grain left in the bag confirms this.... It looked like 4 pounds of wet spent grain.

I'm using a fresh bag of 2 row..... Malteurope....... just like the last one.

H.W.
 
Sounds inconsistent to me, but hey whatever you like keep doing it.

Could you clarify on your not using bag but using it to filter? So you're mashing in the pot without the bag, then pouring the grains and sweet liquor over the bag to filter it out?
 
pricelessbrewing said:
Sounds inconsistent to me, but hey whatever you like keep doing it.

Could you clarify on your not using bag but using it to filter? So you're mashing in the pot without the bag, then pouring the grains and sweet liquor over the bag to filter it out?
Click to expand...

If he's pouring a hot mash into the bag to filter, that sounds extremely dangerous
 
mkyl428 said:
If he's pouring a hot mash into the bag to filter, that sounds extremely dangerous
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm doing.........nor do I consider it dangerous at all. This is 2.5 gallons of mash at 155 degrees minus the temp loss during mashing.... easy to handle. I do this over the sink. I mashed in a stock pot with good handles. I hold on handle and a pot holder on the bottom.

The technique may sound impractical, but actually it works very well on that scale. I've done it with full volume mash also, dipping some of the wort out with a big sauce pan to lighten the load before picking up the pot to dump the rest. The advantage....... for me is that I can easily stir without having the bag in the way. Ultimately I plan to have a system to circulate the mash inside the pot while I'm heating it.

H.W.
 
I'm doing something similar, and I've been waiting to get a refractometer before doing a write-up. I don't want to write a methods article without proof to at least show my OG is the same. Anyway, glad to hear it's working for you, and I'll back up that this can be done safely.
 
pricelessbrewing said:
Sounds inconsistent to me, but hey whatever you like keep doing it.

Could you clarify on your not using bag but using it to filter? So you're mashing in the pot without the bag, then pouring the grains and sweet liquor over the bag to filter it out?
Click to expand...


It obviously IS inconsistent..........but I don't know why......... Perhaps I had one of those "brain farts" and measured out a pound of Munich instead of half a pound, but even then my gravities are coming in higher than usual.


H.W.
 
Tell me if I'm following the math: It sounds like with the new method, an hour long mash, and an over-sized sparge you got around 93% efficiency.

Is that about right?
 
There's no reason why bagged would be less efficient than in the bag the whole time. It's definitely tied to the dunk sparge rather than pour sparge. Pouring water though a clump of grain is sure to channel right through.
 
Magnus314 said:
Tell me if I'm following the math: It sounds like with the new method, an hour long mash, and an over-sized sparge you got around 93% efficiency.

Is that about right?
Click to expand...

I would say that's right......... It was a full hour mash of course, but as to a "new method"..... There is nothing new about it. It was a hybrid of two methods. My "inline mash", and a standard mash. I do the inline mash a lot...... heating on the stove top with the grain in, but usually simply cut it off after 20 minutes or half an hour. The efficiency with this method is quite good....... Usually in the mid to high 80 brewhouse efficiency as calculated by Brewer's Friend. The efficiency of this hybrid methodology exceeds anything I've hit yet, including mashing all afternoon which I often... doughing in at noon and picking things up at 5:30 or 6:00....... Makes for a brew day that works out with a work day.


H.W.
 
Bobby_M said:
There's no reason why bagged would be less efficient than in the bag the whole time. It's definitely tied to the dunk sparge rather than pour sparge. Pouring water though a clump of grain is sure to channel right through.
Click to expand...

I do believe the dunk sparge is more efficient..... However you are wrong about channeling.... at least the way I do it. My bag of grain is in a colander, and has been thoroughly squeezed using a round bottom bowl to press it. When I sparge, there is a well in the center where I add most of the water, though I carefully and slowly pour it around the edges too. The idea is that the grain is a sponge at that point, and I'm trying to saturate it.... Once the water is fully absorbed, I gradually press to squeeze it back out and into the pot, and repeat until I've used all the sparge water.........It's really a soak it up and squeeze the sponge method...... but I plan to quit doing it that way.


H.W.
 
Owly055 said:
I do BIAB, and sometimes "sparge" the bag if my volume comes up a bit short. My sparging technique has been to carefully pour hot water over the bag to saturate the grain, leave it sit for awhile, then squeeze.

Brewer's Friend has a default efficiency of 75%, and I always beat it.......normally hitting the low to mid 80s, and occasionally hitting 90 or so.

The last two brews I've hit phenomenal OG numbers. BF called for 1.044 on this brew, and earlier this week I hit 1.055. I repeated the same brew today, and hit 1.062. I use refracometers (2 of them).

The ONLY real changes in my process were that I brewed without the bag and used the bag as a filter, and I did a dunk sparge in both cases instead of my usual "pour over". I also mashed with 2.5 gallons instead of 3.5, leaving a gallon to dunk sparge.

My dunk sparge process was to lower my bag into a pot with one gallon of hot water... about 170, and stretch the bag over the pot, then I stirred inside the bag quite a bit, making sure all the water was circulated. I then lifted the bag out and squeezed as I usually do.

My grain was carefully weighed, and my volumes were accurately measured. Process changes do not seem like they would be sufficient for such a dramatic result....... Total grain bill was only 4 pounds...2 row, wheat, rye, and Munich 20.

Today's process started out like my "inline mash".... the 30 minute mash, raising the temp from about 130 up to 155...... fast to 145, slow to 155, and then I wrapped the pot in insulation for an additional 30 minutes..... the grain was in mash range for a total of an hour. I also overshot volume, and had to boil an additional 15 minutes (to much sparging).


I rechecked my refractometer readings, and both got the same numbers the second time....


Results like this just don't make sense.................. Something's wrong here. I measure grain all the time, and am sure I didn't over shoot.......... The grain left in the bag confirms this.... It looked like 4 pounds of wet spent grain.

I'm using a fresh bag of 2 row..... Malteurope....... just like the last one.

H.W.
Click to expand...

So, please clarify things for us.
What was your total volume of wort after mashing?
Did you end up with 3.5 or 2.5 (or less) gallons of 1.055 and 1.062 wort after mashing and sparging? We can't figure out your efficiency without a volume to go with the gravity.
 
pdxal said:
So, please clarify things for us.
What was your total volume of wort after mashing?
Did you end up with 3.5 or 2.5 (or less) gallons of 1.055 and 1.062 wort after mashing and sparging? We can't figure out your efficiency without a volume to go with the gravity.
Click to expand...

I ended up with 2.5 gallons of wort from 4 pounds of grain........ wort in the fermenter....... I control that pretty accurately. My most recent brew gave me 1.062 OG..... on two refractometers............. I can only assume that I had a "brain fart" and measured one of my grains at 1 pound instead of 1/2 pound.........nothing else could give me 1.062 with 2.5 gallons of wort in the fermenter on 4 pounds of grain..........

H.W.
 
Yeah, looks like an odd outlier. I've done the brain fart during measuring too. Its still beer in the end!
 
Owly055 said:
I ended up with 2.5 gallons of wort from 4 pounds of grain........ wort in the fermenter....... I control that pretty accurately. My most recent brew gave me 1.062 OG..... on two refractometers............. I can only assume that I had a "brain fart" and measured one of my grains at 1 pound instead of 1/2 pound.........nothing else could give me 1.062 with 2.5 gallons of wort in the fermenter on 4 pounds of grain..........

H.W.
Click to expand...

By my calculations 4 pounds of grain yielding 2.5 gallons of 1.062 wort is greater than 100% efficiency.
There has to be a measurement error involved.
 
pdxal said:
By my calculations 4 pounds of grain yielding 2.5 gallons of 1.062 wort is greater than 100% efficiency.
There has to be a measurement error involved.
Click to expand...

Yup, something's wrong here. Even 4 lb of all 2 row wouldn't yield 1.062 in 2.5 gallons of wort. I imagine something's going wrong with your refractometers, are you allowing the wort to cool?
 
pricelessbrewing said:
Yup, something's wrong here. Even 4 lb of all 2 row wouldn't yield 1.062 in 2.5 gallons of wort. I imagine something's going wrong with your refractometers, are you allowing the wort to cool?
Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with the refractometers...... they read with my hydrometer. 100% efficiency would give 1.059........ so obviously I mis measured something. Based on the efficiency of the previous brew........ I had to have weighed in something at a pound instead of half a pound...........


H.W.
 
Today, I'm testing again using the same mashing technique........ I raised it from my 130F strike water temp to 145 rapidly (about 5 minutes), dropped my heat and spent half an hour climbing from 145-155. Wrapped the kettle in foam, and I'll let it sit for half an hour. I'll then pour it through a brew bag, squeeze well, and dunk sparge.

2.5 gallon brew (reduced grain from 4 pounds to 3.5 pounds)

Strike water 2.5 gallons.... sparge water one gallon.

3 pounds of 2 row, half a pound of rye....... carefully measured

This will be another version of my Mosaic Delight lager, that includes some Willamette and Motueka.

Projected gravity at 75% efficiency 1.039..... If I hit 93%, the gravity should be 1.048. I expect to come in somewhere closer to 1.044

I wasn't going to brew today, but the weather sucks, so what the heck!


H.W.
 
I hit 1.047........... 90% efficiency this time. Far closer to what I expected......... Clearly dunk sparging makes a significant difference. Everything was measured with great precision..... checked and double checked.


H.W.
 
As a BIABEr I've found that a dunk sparge makes a big difference. You can increase your fermentables by 10-15%. (ex: 1.05 -> 1.055 to 1.0575)

It especially helps with large grain bills, like 20 pounds or more.

I mash at around 1.25 Q/lb, and dunk sparge with the rest.

I raise the bag and let it drip dry while teh mash is heating up to boiling.
After 10 minutes or so I squeeze a couple of times to get the concentrated liquid wort out of the bottom of the bag.

Then lower the bag into a second pot.
Open it up, add water, stir it around. Give it a few minutes.
Then raise the bag, and pour the weaker wort (the partigyle or 2nd sparge) into the kettle.
Let the bag drip for some additional wort.

The last time I did this (for a blonde ale) the readings from my refractometer were 18 from the first running and 8 from the second, but the second was a lot smaller.
 
Owly055 said:
I hit 1.047........... 90% efficiency this time. Far closer to what I expected......... Clearly dunk sparging makes a significant difference. Everything was measured with great precision..... checked and double checked. H.W.
Click to expand...

I've been getting 88% efficiency with a 20 -30 minute mash and a dunk or pour over sparge...

... 90-94% (depending on the amount of grain) with a 60 minute mash and a single, double, or pour-over sparge (all of those +/- 2%, and very high attenuation - 90-100%)...

... and 80-84% with a full volume mash and 20-30 minute mash + heat to 170* on the way to boiling before pulling the bag as a mash out.

I leave about a quart and a half of trub behind in an 11 gallon batch, just so these numbers are more specific and relevant to anyone reading this.

My favorite result and process is the first - it lets me easily brew 11 gallons in a 15 gallon kettle, and it doesn't matter if it's a higher gravity beer or not (can't do full volume in my 15 gal kettle for my IPA's and big Belgians).

A friend of mine just did a Belgian Blonde (heh heh :), with 21# of grain and 45 minute-ish mash, heat to mash out with a single sparge, and got 11 gals into the fermenters at 1.060.

That single sparge, regular or pour-over (or in a colander!) makes a 4-8%+ difference in my experience...
 

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