To molasses, or not to molasses?

First of all, a big thank you for everyone that posts their successes and failures on here. I've learned so much already. My husband and I started brewing in June with a Brewers Best gluten-free kit, and ever since I've been addicted to home-brewing and experimentation. With a few exceptions (104 IBU? Wish I'd learned how to calculate that sooner!), we've been pleased with our results. But a good stout still eludes us.

So, I've read mixed reviews about brewing with molasses. We tried one oatmeal stout with blackstrap (big mistake...after four months in the bottle, still virtually undrinkable), but does better quality molasses make a difference? Or would we be better off sticking with Belgian Candi D2?

By the way, brewing in December in Eastern Ontario...madness. If anyone's got tips for brewing in the snow, I'm all ears.

Why do you want dark syrup or molasses in a stout in the first place? The first time I brewed an Imperial stout I used molasses, not even too much but that flavor never went away. What commercial stouts do you like? That's where to start in your quest for brewing advice.

If you're looking for a way to get a good roasted flavor in your stouts syrups are the wrong way to approach it. I suggest getting a pound of whatever gluten free grain you can find and roasting it in your oven until it is a nice dark brown-black color. Crush it, steep it and add it to your kettle.

Due to various constraints (time mainly, availability partly, experience mostly), we've been brewing with extracts rather than grains. Some steeping. We tried roasting oatmeal, and we'll try it again, but weren't able to get the colour or the depth of flavour we were looking for.

The problem with using syrups like molasses id that their color vs flavor contribution is way out of whack. To get the color you want from syrups the flavors will be overwhelming. What other grains are gluten free?

steeping gfree grains never yields much of anything. Do a poor mans partial mash and add a d180 candi syrup to it. I did this method for an amber ale and got one of the best beers I've ever tasted. All you need for a poor mans mash is
A. Bottling bucket (mash tun)
B. Strainer (no handle, so it fits in bucket)
C. Large nylon bag
D. Boil kettle

1. Poor malted grains into strainer
2. Insert strainer into bag
3. Insert bag into bottling bucket
4. Heat up water on stove
5. Poor water over grains in strainer
6. Close up bucket for time (for times and temps check out some other postings here)
7. After repeating steps 5 and 6 ( depending on your mash schedule) drain your wort out into your boil kettle and begin your recipe. From here you can add your candi syrup for darker colors. You can also make a simple syrup using 2 parts water for 1 part brown sugar.

What's the difference between steeping GF grains and normal grains? Especially if all he's looking for color and roasted flavor.

Let me weigh in here as someone who has made stouts both with a huge amount of candi syrup as well as roasted GF grains.

The flavor you get out of adding a little bit of candi syrup to an otherwise-all-grain gluten-free beer is completely unlike the flavor you get by using D-180 for almost 30% of the bill on an almost-all-extract beer. Would you believe me if I told you I tasted the candi syrup MORE at only adding 8 oz to a 3-gallon all-grain batch, than I did adding 2 lbs to a 3-gallon extract batch? Because that has been my experience. To date my no-nonsense stout recipe (which is posted in this forum) is still one of the best I've ever brewed, and compares favorably to my latest all-grain stout recipes. It absolutely DOES NOT have an overwhelming candi syrup taste. In almost two years of almost-weekly gluten-free brewing, I have yet to brew a stout recipe that I would recommend more heartily. The only changes I might make is to use roasted buckwheat instead of instant oats, or maybe 50/50, and use rolled oats instead of instant. I've learned that when steeping GF non-malted grains, you want to AVOID gelatinizing them if possible to keep the starches out of solution. They don't convert, no matter how much you pretend they're malted ;-).

Also, it is IMPOSSIBLE to roast grains at home dark enough to get requisite color for a stout. They call it "black patent malt" for a reason--the process is different than what is used to achieve lighter roasts and is not possible to be replicated in a home kitchen. You WILL carbonize the grains, it WILL taste god-awful, and it WILL still be too light. You will also set off every smoke alarm in the house and need to open every single window to get the smell out...NBD in California summer, much bigger problem in a freezing Northern winter. Don't waste the time and effort. If you want darker than brown or chocolate, order from Colorado Malting Co.

To corkybstewart--there is a TREMENDOUS difference between steeping unmalted GF grains and steeping any sort of malt (be it barley, millet, quinoa, etc.). The malting process makes a huge alteration in the solubility and type of proteins coming out of the grain, produces some amount of sugars that exist even without mashing, and may even lower the gelatinization point of the grain a few degrees. When you steep, say, unmalted millet or unmalted buckwheat that has been roasted, you extract very little from them other than some starch (and not even that if your steeping temps are below the relatively-high gel temp of those grains). Basically, most of what's in the grain stays in the grain, because that's what "gelatinization" is--the temp at which the starch in the grain enters solution. Without malting, the enzymes that break the proteins down into a useable form for the yeast (and the form that enhances head retention) are also not present, and in any case the protein profile of the unmalted grains is totally different than the malted form. Unmalted barley, for instance, has a MUCH higher gluten content than malted.

I've compared the results of using malted millet vs. unmalted millet steeped vs. unmalted millet mashed with exogenous enzymes (Promalt to be exact), and the flavor from the malted grain cannot be compared to either of the unmalted trials. Steeping up to 4 lbs of unmalted millet in a 3-gallon batch without enzymes resulted in, well, a very cloudy/hazy beer with no noticeable grain flavor other than what came from the extract syrups. The enzyme batch had a slightly more prominent grain flavor (on account of requiring less in the way of extract) but was still very thin. The malted millet batch tasted so close to a barley beer that I gave up extract and unmalted-grain-mashed-with-enzyme brewing on the spot.

So yeah, there is a HUGE difference.

I should also add, since the question is about roasted grains, that my first trial with roasted millet malt also completely blew me away, because 0.5 lbs of that stuff in the mash gave me more color than I got out of steeping 2 lbs of home-roasted buckwheat as dark as I could get it. I believe this is because the starches, proteins, and sugars in the roast malt were vastly more soluble than the home-roasted unmalted grains I was using (and of course the professional roast was quite a good bit darker than what I could do at home). I also recall a couple trials where I enzyme-mashed some roasted unmalted grains and even at 4 lbs had trouble getting the color and roast flavor I was looking for. The improvements in flavor were negligible with that method vs. the candi syrup-darkened beers I had been making previously.

igliashon said:

So yeah, there is a HUGE difference.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm slightly less ignorant now than I was when I got up this morning. So I hope you've given the OP the answer he wanted.
Do you think roasting malt in a coffee roaster would help or is it something that only the pro's can do?

Igliashon -- Your No Nonsense Stout is actually next on our list to try. Just need to do the math to scale it up to 5 gallons. I have a tendency to over-hop!

I've been a big lurker in this forum for a while...so much chemistry to get my head around if we're going to do this properly. CMC looks pretty interesting and I'd love to compare for myself the difference between mashing the malted grains and...well...every other method we have available as g-free brewers. But I'm not sure if they ship to Canada, or if the shipping costs would make the cost of a homebrew prohibitive.

I actually just made an 8.5% imperial black ipa using a 1/2# of chocolate millet malt(250L) and 2# of homemade dark candi syrup(made the right way). The coffee /chocolate taste is actually a bit much for a black ipa. It overwhelms the hops a bit. I used about 8oz of hops for 5 gal too.

I'm going to use it as my base for an imperial stout recipe. Just gonna lose the hops and add a little more chocolate malt. You can definitely get a good roasty flavor from candi syrup. It will also add nice dark fig flavors.

Molasses adds some rummyness and mineral flavors depending on style. I personally don't like it in a stout. I use it in my molasses cookie ale only.

whiteknuckle,

You could try contacting Glutenberg in Montreal and see if they have any malt they would part with. I haven't tried that route yet but I plan on it in the new year when I'm back in Canada.

The don't seem to go very dark, but they may have a supplier you could talk to.

I've heard Snowman Brewing out of Toronto is planning on supplying GF malts to HBSs but it doesn't say anything baou that on their site. They've been struggling with getting their brewery Equipment up and running.

Just some Options to think about.

Brewcanuck - Such great tips from out of the country! Actually, Snowman Brewing is one of the reasons we got into home brewing. We couldn't believe there weren't any commercially available stouts or porters or dark ales. We came across Snowman Brewing and tried contacting them, but never got a response back, so...might as well try making it our own damn selves.

Glutenberg is new to me, but there's a dépanneur in Gatineau, a few blocks from where the husband works, that apparently carries them. I've given him a mission for his lunch break.

A modified coffee roaster will work. In fact I'm pretty sure that's what Grouse uses, or used to use.

CMC's shipping is pretty steep even in the states…you'd want to place a big order to make it worth while.

I don't think Glutenberg uses malted grains, I'm fairly sure (at least from the taste of their beer) that they enzyme-mash unmalted grains and occasionally chestnuts. Yes, I've gone through the trouble to track down a Canadian and get the beer shipped down this way…and no, I wasn't terribly impressed. Got the blonde, APA, and red. Definitely "gluten-free" beers, across the board. Not comparable to the malted millet beers I've made, IMO. Heavy corn and/or chestnut and/or candi syrup flavors. Good color and head, though, and generally well-hopped.

What can I say, they aren't keeping me busy here and I'm really excited to get home Oh Canada!!

Microbrasserie Nouvelle France is another GF Micro in Canada. About 3 hours from you but they've actually gotten to the Point where they distribute to the LCBO so I'm planning on looking for it at Christmas. The darkest beer they seem to have is a red though. They do use malted GF grains (Rice, millet and buckwheat) so they may be a good resource.

Is your IBA Gluten Free? If so could you post the recipe?

That's disappointing to hear about the Glutenberg. There are so few g-free beers available in Canada that I think we'll still have to give it a try. The Nouvelle-France beers are so-so. La Messagere Red is definitely better than the Blonde, but still lacks flavour and body. Apparently, they do have a Messagere Millet that's made from malted millet, but I haven't tried that one yet.

Has anyone come across the St. Peter's Dark?

As for the IBA, unfortunately this is a "poison" beer that we brewed for the in-laws (and a few to keep for me, since I'm okay with gluten). More unfortunate is that it is delicious in the extreme, so it's on our list to try and replicate. One of the key ingredients was the addition of Zythos hops at flame-out and secondary dry-hop.