Need saison opinions

When the whether turns warm and the basement is on the edge of good fermenting temps I like to brew something I don't have to keep cool. So I always make a saison. This year I have some excess ingredients so I want to experiment with a not so traditional saison.

What I have so far.....11lbs MO (I have found a recipe with MO)
1lbs crystal rye
1lbs sugar (corn sugar or table sugar don't know yet)

Now I have a bunch of arg. cascades that I have been avoiding because of bad reviews so I thought these might be an option. I also have EKG and fuggles.
2oz arg. cascades 60min?
1oz arg. cascades 10min?

What do ya think.

Anyone ever make a saison with rye or maris otter?

How about with arg. cascades?

Any suggestions on the yeast?

ive never used maris otter in a saison, but i dont see why you couldnt. I do think that the crystal rye is unecessary. malted rye would be fine, and i have used this with success, but crystal rye is going to add unfermentables to a beer whose trademark is its dryness from high attenuation. if you want rye character use malted rye.

i have used cane sugar in a saison at about 10% of the fermentables, and it came out great. I actually used cascades in that beer as well, but not argentinian. I've no experience with those except ive never heard anything good about them. However, you are using yours mainly for bittering so that could work, i think the aroma is the main issue with them.

If youve never used the saison dupont 565 strain, its the best for the style in my opinion, but know that it can be finicky and stall 2/3 through fermentation. there should be some other saison yeasts coming out now for the summer. i believe 566 is a blend of saison yeasts that works fairly well, without the stalling. regardless of strain, you will want some high temps with them, to squeeze out those trademark flavors, and aid in attenuation.

hope this helps.

I used 568 in a Saison recently. I ramped up the temps to 85 to get some of the Saison spice out of the yeast. It is a blend of Saison, Belgian yeasts, and a clean attenuating strain. I am really happy with the outcome, but it is not quite as spicy as I hoped. It definitely tastes like a Saison, but it is not as peppery as Saison DuPont. Also, mine finished out at 1.010 with a mash temp at 146'ish.

When I do it again, I'm going to add some coriander and maybe green pepper at the end of the boil to get a little more spiciness. Since I kept some 568, I will use it again rather than buy a different yeast. I'll probably sub in a little more cane sugar to see if I can get it dryer.

I imagine malted rye would be a nice touch in a Saison. Not sure about caramel rye though. I've never used it before.

The grain bill is fine. Without having worked a Belgian style with those Cascades I can't really comment except to say that I would stay low on the IBUs.

With the Saison the yeast is of paramount importance. Also the ferment temps. I think most homebrewed saisons lose out on most of the spice because they wait too long to raise the temp high. If your ferment is not at +80 within the first 24 hours you will lose most of the opportunity to produce the spicy esters. My saisons never drop below 80. I pitch at 80 and raise the temp from there. The yeast has been cultured to handle that extreme and will not spit out fusels.

Thanks for the info everyone. I am glad I have atleast one that says go and use the rye. I really wanted to use it.

Am a bit nervous about these arg. casc. but I don't know what else to use them for. I honestly think if I don't use them in this saison I'll end up pitching them.

Maybe I'll use some EKG's at the end of the boil.

Anyway I do it I think it will be a different brew compared to what I've brewed before.

dontman said:

With the Saison the yeast is of paramount importance. Also the ferment temps. I think most homebrewed saisons lose out on most of the spice because they wait too long to raise the temp high. If your ferment is not at +80 within the first 24 hours you will lose most of the opportunity to produce the spicy esters. My saisons never drop below 80. I pitch at 80 and raise the temp from there. The yeast has been cultured to handle that extreme and will not spit out fusels.

Click to expand...

Interesting to hear, dontman. I'll have to try that out on my next saison. I used 3724 on the first one, slowly ramping from 64 to 80F. It came out very fruity & tasty, but not as spicy/peppery as I'd like.
I'm curious if you get the stalling behavior at those temps? Or maybe I am just too impatient, wanting beers to ferment in 2 weeks.

Dupont uses pale malt only (+ some wheat syrup) in their saison and they use mostly EKG + some hallertau. The yeast gives the beer so much of its character that I don't think there'll be too noticeable difference between Belgian pale and M.O.

gxm said:

Interesting to hear, dontman. I'll have to try that out on my next saison. I used 3724 on the first one, slowly ramping from 64 to 80F. It came out very fruity & tasty, but not as spicy/peppery as I'd like.
I'm curious if you get the stalling behavior at those temps? Or maybe I am just too impatient, wanting beers to ferment in 2 weeks.

Click to expand...

No stalling at all, no. My ferment is so routine that I never even take a midstream reading. I pitch and then at 3 weeks I bottle. I do give a quick gravity reading but it has always come out at between 08 and 10.

Saison yeasts go against common homebrew conventions. If you baby them by pitching low and ramping slowly you lose a lot of what makes them so special.

If I can offer advice I would highly recommend going aggressive on the temp in an attempt to get the spice profile rather than adding actual spice to get there. It is more satisfying in the end.

And Rudelead - I am right with you on that Hop and grain bill. I use Goldings exclusively, both East Kent and Styrian and 100% Belgian Pilsner malt.

dontman said:

I use Goldings exclusively, both East Kent and Styrian and 100% Belgian Pilsner malt.

Click to expand...

Makes me wonder how my all Armarillo version will turn out. Been in the bottle two weeks, but I'm trying to give it at least another two before popping one.

Don. What are your thoughs on reusing the 3724 yeast? This was my first Saison. It never stalled, but kept up steady airlock activity for two months. I let it ride at around 85 degrees for that time, hoping that the extra primary fermentation wouldn't hurt. After that I went right to the bottle with no secondary. The sample was good enough that I'd like to follow it up with another batch, but wonder if all that primary time may have stress or mutated the yeast? Is it worth taking a chance or better off just buying a new pack and getting a new starter going? (ref - OG 1.071 / FG 1.006)







OP. Sorry for the thread hi-jack, but this info might help you too.

OK - Here is my advice, much of which is taken from "Farmhouse Ales" by Phil Markowski. Belgian beer styles are very loose and need no conform to our usual measures of appropriate style (According to Phil & Yvan De Bates). Its mainly about the results, "Does it taste good?" That being said experimentation and variation from the norm is AOK. The main thing to take away from this is reaching a state of dryness or low FG.

Here is a list of formulation guidelines....

Malts:(1.044-1.070 OG) (1.010-1.002 FG)

• Pilsner - (70-100%) Preferred Choice
• Pale Malt - (70-100%)
• Vienna - (0-30%)
• Light Munich - (0-8%)
• Caramel Malts (10-60L) (0-3%)
• Sugar (~5% for dryness)

Unconventional Malts; wheat, oats & rye Max 25% of grist

Hops; (18-32 IBU Bittering) (Dry hopping .25-1oz)

• Kent Golding, Styrian Golding, Brewers Gold
• Hallertauer
• Saaz

Optional "DRY" Spices (grams/gal) Note min is barely detectable, max is noticable.

• Coriander (7-12)
• Cumin (0.5-1.2)
• Bitter Orange Peel (7-14)
• Ginger (0.5-1.2)
• Grains of Paradise (0.5-1.0)
• Star Anise (0.5-1.0)
• Sweet Orange (5-10)

Yeasts

• wyeast
  • 3724 Belgian Saison
  • 3522 Belgian Ardennes
  • 3463 Forbidden Fruit
  • 3864 Canadian/Belgian
  • 3711 French Saison
• WL
  • 565 Belgian Saison I
  • 550 Belgian Ale
  • 400 Belgian Wit
  • 570 Belgian Golden Ale

2nd Yeast (Only if needed)

• Champagne Yeast
  • Use to dry out if sugar is omitted and FG is high.

Other Notes:

• Mash at 143-147F to maximize starch conversion to help with lower FG
• Boil ~ 90 Min. to help reduce DMS from pilsner malts
• Ferment at 65-75F when starting out then raise to 75-80F to help dry out the beer.

AnOldUR said:

Makes me wonder how my all Armarillo version will turn out. Been in the bottle two weeks, but I'm trying to give it at least another two before popping one.

Don. What are your thoughs on reusing the 3724 yeast?

Click to expand...

I see no problem with the all Amarillo. I use the Goldings because I buy them each in multiple pound lots. I always have tons of both (and Saaz too) on hand

As far as reusing the yeast, I would use it myself. Fact is I have never repurchased a Belgian yeast. I brew enough Belgians that my washed yeast seldom gets to be 3 months old. But it does get to 2 months old and I have never had a problem there. A little different than sitting in the bottom of the primary for two months but not by much I imagine.