yeast starter questions

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losman26

losman26

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Tomorrow, I'm gonna brew up a clone of pliny the elder which has an OG 1.080 using Wyeast American ale.

I see so many discrepancies as the amount of water and DME to use while making a yeast starter. Some people say 1/2 cup, some 1/3, some 1 cup. So what is the right amount? How much water? I will be pitching the yeast into a 6 gal better bottle.
 
with a beer like that, it's also pretty important to make sure you don't under pitch the yeast. a half cup of DME is only good for a 1 liter (or smaller) starter. in 24 hours with one smack pack and 1 liter of 1.040 starter without a stir plate, you will only have a yeast count of 9 million cells per mL. That's only half (actually less) the yeast you should pitch for that beer.
 
If you have a scale it is easy.


1000 ml water and 100g DME. 10 to 1 ratio. easy. Scale it to any size you want.

1.5 L to 150g DME.......
 
losman26 said:
so do I go for a full cup then?
Click to expand...

That's still not enough. A 5 gal. 1.080 beer requires about 273 billion cells. That means you need either 3 liquid yeast packs, or a 4+ liter starter using 1 pack, or a 2.5 liter starter using 1 pack and intermittent shaking, or a 1.6 liter starter using 1 pack and a stir plate.
 
OK, I did my starter of 2.5 liters. Should I use tin foil or an air-lock. I don't have a stir plate, so I the o2 was done by shaking the jug.
 
One more question. The recipe kit says at the end, to fill up until 5 and 1/8 gal, before pitching yeast. Does this change at all, now that I have a starter of 2.5 liters to add?
 
Just for a reference for you. I make my starters to have an OG of ~ 1.050 and about a volume of 600 mL. I start them about 24 hours before I brew and shake often. My 10g batches have been fermenting out fully in 3 days +5 days to let the yeast do a little cleanup before I cold crash them. So 8 days of fermenting and then 5 days of cold crashing. I have been getting very bright beers and my OG's are normally about 1.070.

As far as tin foil to an air-lock, its just a preference, but remember that open fermentation is the most healthy form of fermentation.

Most importantly, no matter how you make your starter, you are doing it right! There are 100 different ways and each way has its own perk. For the record I like to add my starter to my wort when the yeast are as active as possible (no decanting, just happy yeast going into an even better playground than the one they were previously). This way my lag time is only about 3 hours!

Cheers!
 
losman26 said:
OK, I did my starter of 2.5 liters. Should I use tin foil or an air-lock. I don't have a stir plate, so I the o2 was done by shaking the jug.
Click to expand...

In the case of making a starter you should use a piece of aluminum foil. You want an exchange of oxygen. An airlock is designed to keep the air out.

The reason there are varying amounts of DME to use is because there are different expected outcomes of what you want from your starter.

If you just want to "wake your yeast up" and get them active you would only use .5L. If you want the yeast to multiply you use a larger amount of DME say 1.5L-2.5L but there is a limit to the upside as to how much DME to use. Using a whole lot won't equate to tripling or quadrupling your yeast count.

Also, if you just want to get your yeast active you would use .5L of DME and pitch 5-6 hours later. If you want to multiply your yeast you would either pitch after 12-15 hours or more. Typically if you let the starter ferment out 24-36hrs you would set it in your fridge then decant the wort after the yeast settles out.
 
SakARow said:
As far as tin foil to an air-lock, its just a preference, but remember that open fermentation is the most healthy form of fermentation. Cheers!
Click to expand...

You really don't want to use an airlock. You need an exchange of oxygen. You can't get that with an airlock.
 
jetmac said:
In the case of making a starter you should use a piece of aluminum foil. You want an exchange of oxygen. An airlock is designed to keep the air out.

The reason there are varying amounts of DME to use is because there are different expected outcomes of what you want from your starter.

If you just want to "wake your yeast up" and get them active you would only use .5L. If you want the yeast to multiply you use a larger amount of DME say 1.5L-2.5L but there is a limit to the upside as to how much DME to use. Using a whole lot won't equate to tripling or quadrupling your yeast count.

Also, if you just want to get your yeast active you would use .5L of DME and pitch 5-6 hours later. If you want to multiply your yeast you would either pitch after 12-15 hours or more. Typically if you let the starter ferment out 24-36hrs you would set it in your fridge then decant the wort after the yeast settles out.
Click to expand...
Well, I did a 2.5 liter starter based on Mr. Malty, and the starter calculator, because it said I need close to 300 billion cells. It seemed like a lot of DME was added for this starter. Do I pitch all of the liquid or decant it? How do I know when it's ready to pitch? Is usually 12 hours enough? I plan on using it right away.
Thanks again everyone!
 
Check out mrmalty.com for proper starter sizes.

Also yeastcalc.com.

The easiest way to determine the amount of dme to water is to use the metric ratio. 10 to 1. So 1000ml water gets 100 grams dme. 1600ml water gets 160 grams dme and so forth and so on.
 
kh54s10 said:
Check out mrmalty.com for proper starter sizes.

Also yeastcalc.com.

The easiest way to determine the amount of dme to water is to use the metric ratio. 10 to 1. So 1000ml water gets 100 grams dme. 1600ml water gets 160 grams dme and so forth and so on.
Click to expand...
I did that, and did a 2.5 L starter.
 
losman26 said:
Well, I did a 2.5 liter starter based on Mr. Malty, and the starter calculator, because it said I need close to 300 billion cells. It seemed like a lot of DME was added for this starter. Do I pitch all of the liquid or decant it? How do I know when it's ready to pitch? Is usually 12 hours enough? I plan on using it right away.
Thanks again everyone!
Click to expand...

I look at it this way. A 5 gal. batch is around 20 liters and your starter is 2.5 liters of crappy spent 1.040 wort. Since you are brewing up a very precise recipe with precisely measured ingredients and precisely timed hop additions, why would you add over a half gal. of 1.040 liquid that is going to dilute your recipe by over 10%? That doesn't make sense to me. It will change the beer you are trying to make. Give yourself enough time to ferment it out (24 hours) and chill it (at least 24 more hrs.) and then just pitch the yeast cake that settles on the bottom.
 
losman26 said:
Well, I did a 2.5 liter starter based on Mr. Malty, and the starter calculator, because it said I need close to 300 billion cells. It seemed like a lot of DME was added for this starter. Do I pitch all of the liquid or decant it? How do I know when it's ready to pitch? Is usually 12 hours enough? I plan on using it right away.
Thanks again everyone!
Click to expand...

If you are just shaking the vessel every time you pass by it will take several days to finish. Then you can put the vessel in the refrigerator for a day to 24 hours then pour off the liquid carefully leaving the yeast cake on the bottom. You will need a good layer of yeast on the bottom, 1/4 inch or more.

I would not want to pitch the whole thing. That is a lot of "beer" that will not have the proper flavors for your recipe.

Adding: The 24 hours mentioned above is what I do using a stirplate. Without one I would definitely go longer.
 
Or alternately, you could use S-05 dry yeast and not worry about a starter. It's the same yeast with a much higher cell count in dried form.

With really neutral yeasts like the Chico strain (Wyeast 1056, white labs 001, Safale 05 are all the same yeast) I find it's easier to use dry. I have yet to see a difference in the finished beer and I saved the hassle of a starter and the expense of liquid yeast.

YMMV of course, but unless I am going for a specific yeast that is appropriate for the style and important to the flavor of the beer, dry yeast is my friend.
 
wolverinebrewer said:
I look at it this way. A 5 gal. batch is around 20 liters and your starter is 2.5 liters of crappy spent 1.040 wort. Since you are brewing up a very precise recipe with precisely measured ingredients and precisely timed hop additions, why would you add over a half gal. of 1.040 liquid that is going to dilute your recipe by over 10%? That doesn't make sense to me. It will change the beer you are trying to make. Give yourself enough time to ferment it out (24 hours) and chill it (at least 24 more hrs.) and then just pitch the yeast cake that settles on the bottom.
Click to expand...

This is technically incorrect. You are not "fermenting out" your starter. You should never give your starter a chance to fully ferment. You are only allowing the yeast enough time to saturate their volume with the maximum number of cells possible. This is number is going to be reached faster in a stir plate, and the yeast will be healthier too because they don't have time to build up glycogen reserves.
 
kh54s10 said:
If you are just shaking the vessel every time you pass by it will take several days to finish. Then you can put the vessel in the refrigerator for a day to 24 hours then pour off the liquid carefully leaving the yeast cake on the bottom. You will need a good layer of yeast on the bottom, 1/4 inch or more.

I would not want to pitch the whole thing. That is a lot of "beer" that will not have the proper flavors for your recipe.

Adding: The 24 hours mentioned above is what I do using a stirplate. Without one I would definitely go longer.
Click to expand...
Ok, so I guess this throws my brewing schedule off as I won't be able to brew until Monday having to wait for this starter. Is it ok to leave the starter in the fridge for that long after it finishes fermenting? Should I put an airlock on it after it ferments or just keep the foil? I'm also assuming that after decanting the liquid, I have to bring the yeast cake back up to room temp, right?

Also, you mentioned shaking the starter. How much shaking should you do once fermentation has started?
 
kh54s10 said:
If you are just shaking the vessel every time you pass by it will take several days to finish. Then you can put the vessel in the refrigerator for a day to 24 hours then pour off the liquid carefully leaving the yeast cake on the bottom. You will need a good layer of yeast on the bottom, 1/4 inch or more.

I would not want to pitch the whole thing. That is a lot of "beer" that will not have the proper flavors for your recipe.

Adding: The 24 hours mentioned above is what I do using a stirplate. Without one I would definitely go longer.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Decanting the starter is a very good idea. Starters taste gross. I'm of the opinion that starters are best given at least 60 hours to chill in the fridge. I have never seen a starter fully settle out after only 24 hours of refrigeration. After 48 hours they are getting fairly clear and another 12 hours to really compact that yeast cake.
 
mightynintendo said:
This is technically incorrect. You are not "fermenting out" your starter. You should never give your starter a chance to fully ferment. You are only allowing the yeast enough time to saturate their volume with the maximum number of cells possible. This is number is going to be reached faster in a stir plate, and the yeast will be healthier too because they don't have time to build up glycogen reserves.
Click to expand...
so without a stir-plate when do you recommend pitching the starter? How much time do you think it needs? You still recommend decanting right?
 
losman26 said:
Ok, so I guess this throws my brewing schedule off as I won't be able to brew until Monday having to wait for this starter. Is it ok to leave the starter in the fridge for that long after it finishes fermenting?
Click to expand...

Yes. I always give my starters 60 hours in the fridge to allow for all the yeast to fall out of suspension and give time for the yeast cake to compact.

losman26 said:
Should I put an airlock on it after it ferments or just keep the foil?
Click to expand...

Ultimately I would say it doesn't matter. You could put a rubber band around the foil for added protection. An airlock is a bit overkill in my opinion.

losman26 said:
I'm also assuming that after decanting the liquid, I have to bring the yeast cake back up to room temp, right?
Click to expand...

Correct. Be sure to decant when it's still cold. You can let the yeast cake rise to room temperature over the course of a couple hours without hurting anything. You want to avoid letting the yeast cake sit for 12+ hours at room temperature but a few hours while it warms up is pretty much standard practice.

losman26 said:
Also, you mentioned shaking the starter. How much shaking should you do once fermentation has started?
Click to expand...

As much as humanly possible, my friend. :)
 
losman26 said:
so without a stir-plate when do you recommend pitching the starter? How much time do you think it needs? You still recommend decanting right?
Click to expand...

I without a stir plate I would give the starter 36 hours to grow the yeast cell count before refrigerating. Definitely still refrigerate and decant after all the yeast settles out.
 
mightynintendo said:
This is technically incorrect. You are not "fermenting out" your starter. You should never give your starter a chance to fully ferment. You are only allowing the yeast enough time to saturate their volume with the maximum number of cells possible. This is number is going to be reached faster in a stir plate, and the yeast will be healthier too because they don't have time to build up glycogen reserves.
Click to expand...

Ferment out, reaching full krausen or whatever you "technically" want to call it. That is what I was getting at. I chill after the krausen point which I reach at around 24 hours for me whether using a stirplate or shaking every hour.
You are right about chilling. It can take a couple of days.
 
mightynintendo said:
A 2.5 liter starter, allowed to sit with one smack pack of yeast for 24 hours, is still under-pitching a 1.080 wort. This is why most people who use liquid starters eventually become convinced by the value of stir plates.
Click to expand...

With intermittent shaking it says 2.55 liters for 5.13 gal which is the size of the recipe.
 
wolverinebrewer said:
Ferment out, reaching full krausen or whatever you "technically" want to call it. That is what I was getting at. I chill after the krausen point which I reach at around 24 hours for me whether using a stirplate or shaking every hour.
You are right about chilling. It can take a couple of days.
Click to expand...
Do you mean you chill when the Krausen has reached it's peak, or when it has fallen, or when it starts to fall?
 
losman26 said:
With intermittent shaking it says 2.55 liters for 5.13 gal which is the size of the recipe.
Click to expand...

You're using wyeast right?

Their suggested pitch rate for a 1.080 wort is >18 million cells per mL
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm

According to the wyeast pitch rate calculator (http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm) a 0.674 gallon (2.55 liters) starter with one smack pack and without a stir plate, when added to 5.13 gallons of wort, will contribute 12.63 million cells per mL.

Now, assuming you decant and only pitch, say, 100 mL of starter instead of 2.55 liters, adjust the total volume of wort added to reflect the actual final volume. So you say 4.4824 gallons added wort instead of 5.13 to arrive at the correct final volume of 5.1564 (5.13 gallons plus 100 mL). This is what your pitch rate will be. According to wyeast your pitch rate is 14.21 million cells per mL. Not the full 18 that is needed. Honestly at this point I wouldn't sweat it too much. Just pitch what you've got. There's a pretty good chance that it will still ferment out just fine.
 
mightynintendo said:
You're using wyeast right?

Their suggested pitch rate for a 1.080 wort is >18 million cells per mL
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm

According to the wyeast pitch rate calculator (http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm) a 0.674 gallon (2.55 liters) starter with one smack pack and without a stir plate, when added to 5.13 gallons of wort, will contribute 12.63 million cells per mL.

Now, assuming you decant and only pitch, say, 100 mL of starter instead of 2.55 liters, adjust the total volume of wort added to reflect the actual final volume. So you say 4.4824 gallons added wort instead of 5.13 to arrive at the correct final volume of 5.1564 (5.13 gallons plus 100 mL). This is what your pitch rate will be. According to wyeast your pitch rate is 14.21 million cells per mL. Not the full 18 that is needed. Honestly at this point I wouldn't sweat it too much. Just pitch what you've got. There's a pretty good chance that it will still ferment out just fine.
Click to expand...
Hmm, it seems pretty close any how. I've had some brews where I under-pitched and they came out exactly fine. I've had others where I pitched a little more than probably needed, and it was a little under-attenuated.
 
losman26 said:
Do I pitch all of the liquid or decant it? How do I know when it's ready to pitch?
Click to expand...

Either way. There is a preferred method. I don't remember if it's okay to pitch the whole thing in an ale or lager.


losman26 said:
Is usually 12 hours enough? I plan on using it right away.
Click to expand...

12 hours is probably the minmum. I wouldn't have a problem pitching after 12 hours.

Preferably, I would let it work for 24-36 hours then put it in your fridge until the yeast drop. Decant the liquid(all but about .5L to mix it up) and pitch just the yeast.
 
losman26 said:
Do you mean you chill when the Krausen has reached it's peak, or when it has fallen, or when it starts to fall?
Click to expand...

I have always made starters in a half gal. growler and did not have a stir plate. I would usually try to keep it with me even taking it to work and swirl it every hour. Even during the night, I would get up periodically to swirl it.
Generally, even after the krausen had fallen, I would swirl it for a few hours just to be sure it's done. Then I would chill it and decant. Now, I have a stir plate (thanks bigbeavk) so I will not have to be so attentive to it but this was my process and it seemed to work.
Someone earlier in this thread mentioned pitching the whole thing at full krausen because it would take off in 3 hours. My decanted starters usually don't take off for about 10 hours after pitching. Since I leave the beer in the bucket for 3 weeks, I don't care about saving 7 hours and also diluting my beer.
 
losman26 said:
Is it ok to leave the starter in the fridge for that long after it finishes fermenting??
Click to expand...


You can leave it up to about 2 weeks.

losman26 said:
Should I put an airlock on it after it ferments or just keep the foil? ??
Click to expand...

Leave the foil on it
losman26 said:
I'm also assuming that after decanting the liquid, I have to bring the yeast cake back up to room temp, right??
Click to expand...

Bring the whole shebang to the temp of your wort(within 10 degrees) then decant, leaving a little bit to mix up the yeast cake

losman26 said:
Also, you mentioned shaking the starter. How much shaking should you do once fermentation has started?
Click to expand...

Once per hour would be ideal
 
losman26 said:
so without a stir-plate when do you recommend pitching the starter? How much time do you think it needs? You still recommend decanting right?
Click to expand...

The calculator has calculated in the fact that your are shaking it not using a stir plate so the amount of time is the same.

Preferably let the starter ferment 24-36 hours then refrigerate until the yeast drop. Then pitch
 
jetmac said:
Bring the whole shebang to the temp of your wort(within 10 degrees) then decant, leaving a little bit to mix up the yeast cake
Click to expand...

I would actually disagree with this. Bringing the whole starter up to temp will cause some yeast to become re-suspended in the wort as they wake up and begin to feed. It is my opinion that decanting should be done while the starter is still cold so as to avoid allowing the yeast to become active again before pouring them down the drain.
 
mightynintendo said:
I would actually disagree with this. Bringing the whole starter up to temp will cause some yeast to become re-suspended in the wort as they wake up and begin to feed. It is my opinion that decanting should be done while the starter is still cold so as to avoid allowing the yeast to become active again before pouring them down the drain.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm....It's never been a problem for me. There should be nothing to "feed" on. And the yeast remain protected from the environment while they warm up.
 
there is soo many varing opinions on this subject and related threads.....but still wish someone would make a good long sticky for starters. proper size and several ways to prepare one.
 

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