Witbier Blue Balls Belgian Wit (Blue Moon Clone)

piteko said:

You already pitched twice? Was the second yeast at high krausen when pitching? If so, it's strange that two different vials gone stuck. Which temperature is the beer at? Did you double check the densimeter? I'm just trying to think out of the box...

If temperature is ok and the densimeter is fine, you could have reached a fermentation limit where you have no more fermentables. That would be strange, 1030 is pretty high. Which temp did you mash? What was the grist? Which yeast did you use?

Cheers from Italy!
Piteko

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Yes I pitched twice, the starter went for a full 48 hours before pitching and was very active. I double ground my grains which I have been doing since my first BIAB batch came out really low efficiency. I used whitelabs WLP400 yeast and the fermenter is currently about 68 degrees Faherenheit

I had to google densimeter, never heard of it before. I don't have the gear to measure that just temp and gravity.

Still getting a handle on BIAB, its possible there are no more fermentables left. This was my second batch and the mash temp ended up being a bit high for the first 10 minutes or so until i got it under control. I didn't keep track of temps the whole way through but 154 was the goal, and I mashed out at 168.

Xantus954 said:

I used whitelabs WLP400 yeast and the fermenter is currently about 68 degrees Faherenheit

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I just read it takes a bit of time to fully attenuate, but it should go lower than 1030 if there are fermentables.

Xantus954 said:

I had to google densimeter, never heard of it before. I don't have the gear to measure that just temp and gravity.

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What do you use to measure your OG? I use a simple densimeter like the one on the left:

Xantus954 said:

Still getting a handle on BIAB, its possible there are no more fermentables left. This was my second batch and the mash temp ended up being a bit high for the first 10 minutes or so until i got it under control.

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It depends on how much "a bit high" means, but that could be. 154 is not a low mash temp and if you reached 158 or 160 that would denature a lot of enzimes. That's the kind of temperature that is needed to make very low alcohol beers, in the OG range of 1035-1038, so they don't thin out too much.

If you than lowered back your mash temp, you could have slowed down the remaining enzimes. Did you make a starch convertion test with iodine?

Anyway, I think you have to two choices here:
1) take a density measure now and one next week. if they are the same, bottle your beer, otherwise the yeast is not done. In this case, you can give it some extra time, you can go a bit higher with the fermentation temp and rouse the yeast again.
2) use a different yeast, one with a much bigger attenuation rate. I suggest Danstar Belle Saison. I use it for this recipe and it's an extreme attenuator, usually between 95% and 100%. That could dry up your beer.

If you don't know what to do, take a sample of your beer and taste it. If it's ok or slighly sweet, I suggest option 1.

Xantus954 said:

I didn't keep track of temps the whole way through but 154 was the goal, and I mashed out at 168.

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You should, it helps a lot to improve your brewing technique, both for debugging and for recipe repeatability.
In the future, for a yeast that you don't know well, I suggest a forced fermentation test too, it's very useful.

Cheers from Italy!
Piteko

I use a hydrometer to take measurements.

From the reading I've done my issue is because I haven't nailed my strike temp yet. For this batch it was up near 160 for the first 5-10 minutes until i got it cooled down. The calculators I'm using to calculate it have been way off so far, i get very little temp drop with the water and 10-12 lbs of grain so the calculators are causing me to overshoot it. Just need to keep at it and figure out what works best for my setup at the moment.

Thanks for the advice.

I had the same issue, even after pitching a 2nd time. After 6 weeks as a last resort, I added yeast nutrients and then stirred it very gently to rouse the yeast and that did the trick. Be careful of an infection though, good luck!


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My fermentation stopped at 1.030 as well, but I . I had used Wyeast 1056 - American Ale as for initial fermentation. I gave up and kegged it, but I just can't drink it. Yesterday, I went to the Home Brew store and picked up some Safale S04 and yeast nutrients. I am going to remove the carbonation, throw the beer back into the secondary with S04, the nutrients and pray for the best. Going to try and keep the fermentation temp above 70F and see if I can get the FG down to 1.007ish.

I've never tried this before, so I'm hoping it works. I've also heard Beano can help break down starches due to a high mash (might be part of my problem here as well). I'm contemplating picking some up on the way home, but may give the new yeast + nutrients a chance first.

I'm kinda new to all grain brewing. Could you explain the steps that you outline for the mash in the original post? Specifically what the two different temperatures mean for each step. Thanks!

I don't have any 4.50 lb Pale Malt Crisp (UK) (3.0 SRM) so I was wondering if I could use either Vienna malt or just standard pale malt? my LHBS does not carry the 3.0 pale malt.

I like Pilsen malt in Wits. For me it seems to give a slightly sweeter finish that balances the tartness from the yeast. But any pale malt should work, your final color may just be a little lighter or darker.

bolus14 said:

I like Pilsen malt in Wits. For me it seems to give a slightly sweeter finish that balances the tartness from the yeast. But any pale malt should work, your final color may just be a little lighter or darker.

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I had been thinking about using the Vienna malt because of the darker color. I also have some Golden Promise malt. Thanks for the reply.

Another one with stuck ferments of this beer, two now. These were my second and third all grain brews.

Number 1: LHBS did not have the Pale crisp listed, so they subbed me out for a replacement (forgot what ). Overshot mash by maybe 3 degrees in the beginning, OG overshot by maybe 5 points. Direct pitched WLP400 vial and set ferm temp to 68 or so. After a week, activity stopped at 1.022. Threw in some yeast energizer with no response. Pitched a 1L starter of WLP400 and it dropped to 1.02 where it stayed.

Went back to the LHBS and they said the grain he gave me didn't have enough diastolic value to cover the wheat, which had zero? So he gave me something else, I think Vienna?

Number 2: Overshot mash by maybe 1-2 degrees, OG overshot by a few points, pitched a 1L WLP400 starter at 66 deg. upped temp to 70, sitting at 1.018 now

I have a question for all of you on the smell/taste during fermentation. I have a separate Wit fermenting right now, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/pain-wit-511860/, it's at the two week mark and right now almsot all of the citrus/orange/coriander is non existent. For the most part I just get a strange funkiness that I've only gotten once before, and that was with a blond, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/lemonparty-citrus-blonde-292447/. This particular smell/taste never really went away until the last few bottles or so, but I may have bottles too soon on that one.

So, have any of you noticed a really off smell or taste in this earlier i nthe fermentations? I know it's belgian yeast whihc are notorious for being funky during fermentation, just wondering if anybody has a good idea of when that should go away and the citrus character to come back.

I just checked on mine again and the one I brewed almost 2 months ago got down to 1.012 so I bottled. It seemed to have a little funk and off flavor to me, almost like a saison. I did pull a sample of my saison a while back and may not have properly fully sanitized my thief before pulling a wit sample. Or from pitching another vial, who knows.

Just a thought on the stuck fermentations I've been reading, what if you tryed some amylase enzymes in the secondary that's should drop it down some. Not sure if it would dry it out too much though. Thoughts?

I used Forbidden Fruit, 3463, and mine is currenty sticking at 1.020. neither 400 or 3463 seem to be known for stuck fermentations. I'm thinking my problem is that my mash temp was too high. At this point mine will end up being 3.43% so very sessionable, although out of style. I may add some Black Cherry juice to some of it though so that will boost the ABV a little and who knows may spark the yeast to chew through more sugar, if there's any left for it.

Didn't bother to read through ALL of this thread, but I'm actually in the process of brewing this right now...got the kettle boiling now! BUT has anyone dry hopped with some actual oranges or extra zest? I understand actually oranges may get a little pulpy so maybe just the rinds?

I believe Dogfishhead uses whole oranges, and lemongrass, in Namaste so it should work. Like you said you'll likely have some pulp in the end but that should be easy to rack off.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1427413732.497917.jpg

Does this look okay? And anybody get a sulfur smell? I've read that wheat beers have given people that stink before and this certainly stinks. I just hope it's not infected.

RDWHAHB.
Sulfur is normal with most Belgian strains. Looks like you got a good fermentation going.

bolus14 said:

RDWHAHB.
Sulfur is normal with most Belgian strains. Looks like you got a good fermentation going.

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Those bubbles don't look like Brett/lacto at all?

peejaynj said:

Those bubbles don't look like Brett/lacto at all?

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i'm not super experienced with brett, but i have made 2 sours. neither on ever looked like that, and it took about 5 months for any pellicle to show up at all -- and thats with intentionally pitching brett and pedio. I'd say you're fine.

I would agree. I pitched some Goose Island Sofie dregs, assume to be Brett of some sort, into this forums azcoob's Cottage House Saison and I'm only seeing some very thin foam and a bubble here and there. Nothing like what your pic is showing.

Ok got beer from OG 1.043 to 1.01. Now wednesday I'm gonna rack ontop of fresh oranges in a secondary. Would you pitch another yeast and maybe some sugar to get it down a little more or do you think just dry hopping oranges alone would be nice enough in the end. Just trying to get some opinions.

I found a beer at Twin Peaks which I've been attempting to find a clone. The name is Dirty Blonde American White Ale. It's similar to Blue Moon and I believe from what I've discovered in researching this brew, it's very close to this recipe.

Have any of you had a "Dirty Blonde" from Twin Peaks and if so how did it compare to BierMuncher's Belgian Wit?

In preparing to make this brew I am curious about the need for a starter. I use starters on my heavy beers but this is definitely not a heavy brew. I'm curious to know why the starter.

I know some folks won't make iced tea without a starter but on this one why?

I'm a long time fan of BierMuncher brews and basically brew any of his recipes without question. However, as some of you have noticed the numbers on this recipe do not appear to add up.

I know the various softwares we use don't always give the same result so I'm not really concerned. However...

I do want to verify the OG of 1.038 is what is actually desired for this brew.

Can anyone out there confirm this?

Cheers!

Sudz said:

I'm a long time fan of BierMuncher brews and basically brew any of his recipes without question. However, as some of you have noticed the numbers on this recipe do not appear to add up.

I know the various softwares we use don't always give the same result so I'm not really concerned. However...

I do want to verify the OG of 1.038 is what is actually desired for this brew.

Can anyone out there confirm this?

Cheers!

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I brewed this a couple months ago. I believe I had 1.040, but forget what my FG was (it's in my notebook, but i'm too lazy to go 2 floors down to the basement to check...sorry). Regardless, it turned out very nice. Has that orange taste -- light and refreshing.

BierMuncher got back to me and confirmed it was a 1.038 beer.

I just finished another pint of this brew after about three weeks in the bottle. Simply outstanding. One of his best yet.

Thanks BierMuncher!

This week I did my first real beer mash using ale yeast malt and every thing. One thing that caught me off guard scaling to the larger recipe size was cooling times. So, I ended up pitching at a much higher than optimum temperature, alas I didn't have an acceptable chiller.

Despite using vastly different ingredients: 6-row, crystal 20, rice, sassafras, etc. the result reminded me of blue moon.

I think I read on this blog that the higher pitch temps lead to fruity esters sometimes, I can't help but wonder if this is also a substantial part of the blue moon orange ester flavor?

Brewing this on Saturday, sticking to the original recipe except for the yeast...I opted for the T-58

First brew in 5 months, looking forward to it!

Brewed this, used 1 oz of coriander and orange peel, turned out awesome!View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1480398382.319250.jpg

Question, I went to brew this morning and realized I only had 2 lbs of flaked maize when I needed 4 1/2. I went out and bought 2 1/2 lbs of grits and cooked them according to the instructions. Once my mash was ready I dumped the grits and stirred and let set for 1 hour. Brew day went fine but when I i placed this liquid gold in the fermentor there were a lot of floats which look like grits. Within the first hour it settled to the bottom forming a 5 finger trub cake. Has anyone substituted grids for flaked make and had this "issue"?

On my second batch of this badboy!

I sub grits for corn maze all the time but the is for cream of three crops type of beer. Im not sure how that plays into this recipe. Im not seeing that in this recipe.

I am thinking I'd like to try the extract version of this recipe (as per post #5, scaled to 3.25 gallons in Beersmith, then tweaked the amounts to more rounded, easier to measure values).

I have a few questions...

1 - this will be my 2nd batch of homebrew... any issues with this brew that would make it a bad choice for a noob?

2 - I don't have any good local HBS, so will be going online, likely Ontario Beer Kegs, and the place I'm looking to buy from doesn't carry Flaked Wheat, but they do carry Toasted Wheat, is that a fair substitute? If not, any suggestions... can a person just buy flaked wheat from, say a bulk food store?

3 - OBK doesn't appear to carry the yeasts I've seen mentioned in this thread (though to be fair I haven't read every post). Is it too much to ask, if someone could look at their yeast offerings here: https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Yeasts_s/316.htm and tell me if there is a good yeast choice in their inventory?

Mothman said:

I am thinking I'd like to try the extract version of this recipe (as per post #5, scaled to 3.25 gallons in Beersmith, then tweaked the amounts to more rounded, easier to measure values).

I have a few questions...

3 - OBK doesn't appear to carry the yeasts I've seen mentioned in this thread (though to be fair I haven't read every post). Is it too much to ask, if someone could look at their yeast offerings here: https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Yeasts_s/316.htm and tell me if there is a good yeast choice in their inventory?

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for your #3 above, I can suggest Wyeast 3944 as an alternative, however OBK is out of that as well...here are two more options for online ordering for you, that I have had good results with, for the WLP400:

https://shortfingerbrewing.com/products/wlp400-belgian-wit-liquid-yeast-pure-pitch

https://torontobrewing.ca/index.php/wlp400-belgian-wit-ale-yeast-ip.html

and for 3944

https://torontobrewing.ca/index.php/3944-belgian-witbier-yeast-ip.html

shortfinger is out of the 3944 as well.

I've used this page before, to find alternatives for yeast.

http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm

I hope all of this has helped some.

Mothman said:

I am thinking I'd like to try the extract version of this recipe (as per post #5, scaled to 3.25 gallons in Beersmith, then tweaked the amounts to more rounded, easier to measure values).

I have a few questions...

1 - this will be my 2nd batch of homebrew... any issues with this brew that would make it a bad choice for a noob?

2 - I don't have any good local HBS, so will be going online, likely Ontario Beer Kegs, and the place I'm looking to buy from doesn't carry Flaked Wheat, but they do carry Toasted Wheat, is that a fair substitute? If not, any suggestions... can a person just buy flaked wheat from, say a bulk food store?

3 - OBK doesn't appear to carry the yeasts I've seen mentioned in this thread (though to be fair I haven't read every post). Is it too much to ask, if someone could look at their yeast offerings here: https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Yeasts_s/316.htm and tell me if there is a good yeast choice in their inventory?

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#1 - no issues I can think of...I enjoyed this brew alot, I have made it twice, and I will make it a third time I'm sure.

#2 - toronto brewing is where I get my flaked wheat as well, as OBK never seems to have any.

https://torontobrewing.ca/index.php/toasted-wheat-1-lb.html

I'm not sure about extract and with partial grains, but for an AG All Grain, I've used rice hulls to help avoid a stuck sparge...just a thought, as you likely might not have any on hand now, and if you are like me, you might want to avoid having to order JUST rice hulls...better to add them to your order of flaked wheat, 3944 yeast from toronto brewing, one stop shop ...

cheers! good luck and happy brewing.

Thanks snake, I will look at TorontoBrewing. Although when I look at their wheat listing, I see they are selling *toasted* wheat flakes as well, same as OBK. Guess it's the same thing.

I don't think rice hulls is anything I'd need to worry about for the extract version... it's just dry extract, and the wheat (which I will mash in a bag in the kettle), and the little bit of coriander and orange peel, which I imagine I could just leave in, if it ends up in the fermenter, not worries.

Does the coriander seed need to be crushed? Or is it just used whole? If crushed, am I safe to assume any old way I can crush them is fine... eg. put them in a ziplock bag and smack them a bit with a rolling pin.

ya, the item title description says:
"Flaked Wheat - Gilbertson and Page (1 lb)"

but the description once on the page says:
"Toasted Wheat greatly increases body and head retention in most any beer."

so I'm not sure whats up with that...but the last batch I got from them, was not toasted/roasted, just normal flaked wheat as in the picture...I would think roasted/toasted might give it a bit more of a roasted taste, maybe not "official" for a Wit, but meh...it'll still make beer, and you will live and learn from the experience...so I'd say go for it!

as for the coriander, yes i would crush it...I just ran mine thru the magic bullet, with the two blade, flat blade attachment, and no issues...I know a guy who roasted his first in a frying pan, then ran thru the magic bullet...both turned out ok and made beer

and yes, you can likely save on the rice hulls at this stage for sure...my bad, just putting it out there...I'm always more on the side of, "more is better" when it comes to information...

Hope that helps out.

oh & I found this thread here with some other options for yeast, in case you wanted to see more options:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=240436

Thanks for the info!