My first attempt at an ESB - advice/critique needed and appreciated!

Original Gravity
1.055
(1.049 to 1.058)
Final Gravity
1.016
(1.014 to 1.017)
Color
12° SRM / 24° EBC
(Copper to Red/Lt. Brown)
Mash Efficiency
65%
Bitterness
22.4 HBU
37.4 IBU
Alcohol
5.2% A.B.V.
4.0% A.B.W.

9 gallon batch, boiled for 90 minutes

malt and fermentables
% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable
88% 18 8 British Pale (Maris Otter)
7% 1 8 British Crystal 70-80L
5% 1 0 Biscuit Malt
total 20 0

hops
use time oz variety
Boil 90 mins 1.0 Progress
Boil 90 mins 1.0 Goldings
Boil 15 mins 1.0 Goldings
Boil 15 mins 1.0 Fuggles
Boil 05 mins 1.0 East Kent Goldings
Boil 05 mins 1.0 Fuggles

Dry hop 14 days 1.0oz East Kent Goldings
Dry hop 14 days 1.0oz Progress

yeast
White Labs British Ale (WLP005)

Single infusion mash at 154
6.25 gallon mash
1.6 gallon mash out at 168
5.25 gallon batch sparge at 168
Ferment at 65

Thoughts on the recipe? I was toying with the idea of using some munich as well. I have access to most of the white labs offerings, would another of their yeasts be a better choice? What does everyone think about the dry hopping? I decided progress would be a better choice than fuggles to go with the EKG. Will the dry hopping obscure the malt flavor too much?

All advice and criticisms are appreciated!

Perfectly solid recipe.

Yeast choice is fine too.

I love Progress for bittering, in fact I'd just use that and not bother with the EKG, but that's a personal thing (I find Progress gives a little more bite than EKG as a bittering addition).

I wouldn't dry hop, not appropriate for style (not that that matters, but I do think you want some malt aroma).

I'm torn on Biscuit malt. I used to use it a lot for bitters, but lately find I don't need it when using MO. Also, while it's described as contributing a biscuity flavor, I found it also adds a bit of sourdough... which I don't like. YMMV.

sourdough? that sounds disgusting. even with just 5% of the grain bill being biscuit malt i will still get that flavor? never tasted that before when i have used biscuit.

so no dry hopping - what kind of a hop schedule do you recommend?

The main difference between an ESB and an IPA is the hop profile. With the 5 minute adds and dry hopping, you've got an English IPA.

david_42 said:

The main difference between an ESB and an IPA is the hop profile. With the 5 minute adds and dry hopping, you've got an English IPA.

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+1 The hops you have = IPA, not ESB. The hop aroma/flavour should be pretty low with more malt balanced with the bitterness.

krugulitis said:

what kind of a hop schedule do you recommend?

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soooooo...

krugulitis said:

soooooo...

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Your hops are fine the way they are, sans the dry-hopping.

I've never used biscuit in an ESB, just MO and crystal, and it comes out plenty malty.
You're using a darker crystal than I do, but I usually add a very small amount of black malt just for the color. (I can only get crystal 55 locally, so your crystal looks good.)
I usually add a small amount of sugar to mine to lower the FG a bit, but I use WLP002, and you're using WLP005 which attenuates a bit better; so no need for sugar in your case.
I agree with the others about dropping the dry hops.

Let me know if you want help drinking it.

-a.

yeah i would ditch the biscuit as well, and I wouldn't use munich. and simplify hopping. 60 minute and a flameout.

i don't have a problem with dry-hopping an ESB, as long as the hops don't overly dominate.

and I'm gonna play the Papazian card - his Ordinary Bitter all-grain recipe is dry-hopped with 0.5oz EKG for 10 days.

Now, yeast - Thames Valley II is out right now from Wyeast. just sayin'....

Dry hopping is extremely standard with English bitters.

Right, I believe the standard is "a fat handful in a barrel", not 2 oz in 5 gallons.

david_42 said:

Right, I believe the standard is "a fat handful in a barrel", not 2 oz in 5 gallons.

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Rereading his post could help when giving recipe advice.

ChrisKennedy said:

Rereading his post could help when giving recipe advice.

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I don't understand your comment... the OP says 2 oz of hops for dry hopping. Not sure if you meant to sound a little *****ey here, but it comes across that way.

Also, the BJCP guidelines say nothing about dry hopping an ESB. They have more hop flavour than an ordinary or special bitter, and some examples can have higher hop flavour, but I think when you do as many hop additions as in the OP you're in the realm of English IPA. I think there is a very fine line between the two and I expect there to be some cross over, but I think that recipe will be more hop forward than the style should.

As for the dropping the biscuit, I say keep it and and up it by 0.5-1#. I use 1.5# of biscuit in my ESB and it's great. I don't feel that biscuit lends more maltiness really, just emphasises the toasty flavour.

It is also a 9gal batch. It comes across *****ier than it was intended, but my pet peeve is people criticizing a recipe based on their own personal preferences and not the quality of a recipe. There is no reason why this amount of hops in 9gal will not produce an excellent (albeit hoppy) ESB.

Edit: I also find using the BJCP to justify restrictions on bitters (and milds for that matter) a tricky thing, since the BJCP simply doesn't represent a good portion of English brewing.


And I can go either way on the biscuit. I used to have it in my ESB when I was using Rahr Pale Ale malt, but when I moved to Maris Otter as a base, I ditched the biscuit and will never return. I feel it covers up too much of the amazing flavor of Maris Otter.

ChrisKennedy said:

It is also a 9gal batch. It comes across *****ier than it was intended, but my pet peeve is people criticizing a recipe based on their own personal preferences and not the quality of a recipe. There is no reason why this amount of hops in 9gal will not produce an excellent (albeit hoppy) ESB.

Edit: I also find using the BJCP to justify restrictions on bitters (and milds for that matter) a tricky thing, since the BJCP simply doesn't represent a good portion of English brewing.

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So david_42 got the batch size wrong, and I'm not sure where his saying came from, but a handful in a barrel is still far less than 2 oz in 9 gal.

I agree with you on the BJCP styles, they aren't the best enumerated guidelines for bitters, but we haven't got much better to go on and I find if followed they produce a good ESB. My question to you would be what is a hoppy ESB if not an English IPA?

I don't think 3.33oz of late/dry hops in 5gal of ESB makes it into an IPA necessarily. And I don't think it will cover up the malt bill.

It may be similar to some traditional English IPAs, but I bet it will also be similar to some traditional strong bitters.

The point ISN'T whether or not this will make your idea of an ESB. The point is whether or not this recipe will make what the OP wants it to make.

The OP can help matters by further elaborating about what he really wants out of this recipe. I can tell him that the hop bill, in my experience, will not obscure his malt bill too much, they tend to merge quite nicely.

Update:

My hop choices are far less than I had originally thought. Home Brew Mart/Ballast Pt. doesn't update there website that often - so my options are now Brewer's Gold, Fuggles, and Goldings (not EKG). So I'm thinking Brewer's Gold to bitter, Fuggles and Goldings for flavor/aroma.

Elaboration:

I decided to brew an ESB after having a six pack of fuller's ESB a week or so ago (which I hadn't had in a while). My desired beer would be slightly fuller bodied, hence no flaked maize or sugar and a decently high mash temp. To me an ESB is all about balance - so no I don't want an English IPA. I do not want the hops to obscure the malt, and vice versa.

The more I think about it the more I am leaning towards ditching the biscuit. The sourdough comment and the thought of it obscuring the maris otter flavor has me a little freaked out. Would victory be a better choice, or would I run the same risk for weird sourdough flavors and/or obscure maris otter's flavor? I could care less about being 100% to style, really I just want a noticeable toasty, caramel, malty flavor and aroma for the beer.

For hops I generally dry hop 2 oz in a 5 gallon batch, so I figured 2 oz in a 9 gallon batch would still yield a noticeable hop aroma, but not be overwhelming. I don't know if anyone here has used wlp005, but it certainly favors malt. The beers I have made with it had very little hop presence - hence my decision to dry hop. Given the arguments spawned by this recipe addition, I think a 1oz addition is now what I will do so that I do not cover up the malt aroma.

Here is a new recipe I have been toying with. Let me know what you guys think - things like: change hop schedule, adding victory/biscuit, cutting down on crystal malts, etc. Also, remember this is a 9 GALLON BATCH, not a 5 gallon - I think this caused a lot of confusion and I am sorry I wasn't clearer beforehand.

malt and fermentables (1.055OG, 1.016FG, 11SRM)

% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable
90% 19 0 British Pale (Maris Otter)
05% 01 0 British Crystal 70-80L
05% 01 0 Carastan Dark 30-37L

hops (38IBU)

use time oz variety
Boil 60 min 2.0 Brewer's Gold
Boil 10 min 1.0 Fuggles
Boil 10 min 1.0 Goldings
Boil 01 min 1.0 Fuggles
Boil 01 min 1.0 Goldings

Dry hop 10 days 1.0 Goldings

Yeast

WLP005

ChrisKennedy said:

but my pet peeve is people criticizing a recipe based on their own personal preferences and not the quality of a recipe.

Click to expand...

ChrisKennedy said:

I also find using the BJCP to justify restrictions on bitters (and milds for that matter) a tricky thing, since the BJCP simply doesn't represent a good portion of English brewing.

Click to expand...

I find that very amusing.

I also think, that when a poster says he wants to brew an ESB, and lists English malts, hops, and yeasts, we could be forgiven for assuming that he wants to brew an English ESB. There is only one English ESB, although there are several other English beers that fall into the same style. None of them that I have found (and I spent many years searching) has the sort of hop presence that you would get from 2 oz dry hops in a 9 gallon batch. I'm not saying that would necessarily taste bad, just that it doesn't exactly fit in the BJCP style, and that it doesn't fit any English best or strong bitter that I have tasted.

-a.

hmmmmmm looks good.

does your HBS carry us goldings? someone else can chime in, but I think they are pretty similar.

motobrewer said:

hmmmmmm looks good.

does your HBS carry us goldings? someone else can chime in, but I think they are pretty similar.

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yeah that is what i am now working with. had my heart set on ekg and progress, so i am kind of bummed they were out. us goldings and fuggles should produce a decent beer though.

ajf said:

I find that very amusing.

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Not sure what you find amusing?

I'll chime in about US Goldings being a good substitute for the EKG. If I remember correctly, the EKG's have a slightly better aroma, but it's been so long since I had any, that my memory could be playing tricks on me.

You mentioned a "decently high mash temp". I have found that a thick mash (1 qt per lb) and a mash temp of 152F works much better than a thinner mash, but I've never tried mashing higher than 154. The mash thickness and low temperature is mentioned by Ray daniels in Designing Great Beers as being traditional for the English malts, and that is what I was taught.
You have a bit too much crystal for my taste (I'd cut it down to 12 oz of each), but there's no reason why your taste should be the same as mine; and I wouldn't add any victory or biscuit. I've never tried the Brewers Gold so I won't comment on that. Your late hop additions are just about what I do when scaled down. I add the last addition a flame out, but I don't think that would make any noticeable difference.

-a.

ajf said:

I'll chime in about US Goldings being a good substitute for the EKG. If I remember correctly, the EKG's have a slightly better aroma, but it's been so long since I had any, that my memory could be playing tricks on me.

You mentioned a "decently high mash temp". I have found that a thick mash (1 qt per lb) and a mash temp of 152F works much better than a thinner mash, but I've never tried mashing higher than 154. The mash thickness and low temperature is mentioned by Ray daniels in Designing Great Beers as being traditional for the English malts, and that is what I was taught.
You have a bit too much crystal for my taste (I'd cut it down to 12 oz of each), but there's no reason why your taste should be the same as mine; and I wouldn't add any victory or biscuit. I've never tried the Brewers Gold so I won't comment on that. Your late hop additions are just about what I do when scaled down. I add the last addition a flame out, but I don't think that would make any noticeable difference.

-a.

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good feedback. much appreciated!

I still have to disagree about the biscuit, I think it has it's place in an ESB. I've never tasted anything close to sourdough in my brews and nor do I think it obscures the MO flavour. If anything I think it enhances it.

If you're going for a Fuller's style ESB, then I don't think that's what you'll be brewing. To me, Fuller's has very little hop aroma/flavour and is a little richer/sweeter than most ESBs. I think your caramel malt additions will get you in the ball park, and you'll be OK without the biscuit. As for the hops, either Fuggles or Goldings will work, but I would lean towards Fuggles are I think they are a little more earthy. Brewer's Gold is a decent choice for bittering, but if HBM has any Northern Brewer, I might go with that instead.

As for the body, I've had much luck with a higher mash temp, usually 154-156 (went up to 158 for my holiday porter) and using 1.25qt/lbs, though I am now interested in ajf's proposed method.

Why I say it obscures it is because I think maris otter gives a similar flavor with more subtlety. Adding biscuit essentially replaces what maris otter does with toasty flavors with what the biscuit will do. I find it redundant at the very least.

It will still make a good beer of course, but I like letting the maris otter do most of the malt expression, along with some crystal.

Ah, well then yes, that I agree with. I add biscuit to enhance the MO flavour in some brews.

FWIW, I think the Biscuit is fine but I use Honey malt there instead. Sub the Honey malt for the Biscuit and cut back on the dry hops (my preference) and your recipe in the OP is essentially the same as mine.