Good Deal on Ph Meter? $11 shipped!

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
This is indeed a good deal - for the seller. For the buyer it is simply a loss of $11. The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. For starters the resolution of 0.1 is insufficient and next is the fact that no $11 meter is going to be stable enough to allow for usable readings. These may be OK for aquaria and such where one only needs to know that pH is in some wide (0.5) pH range. In brewing we want to know it much better and be able to resolve pH changes of 0.02 or so. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460
 
Hmm... bummer. Well I'll updrade this meter in the near future as needed. Right now I have zero clue what my mash Ph is, and from your write-up, it seems that the goal is to get into a range of 5.1-5.5, with a target of 5.3? How would 0.1 resolution not achieve that goal? Oh, and theoretically it WAS a $40 meter.

You might be right about stability, so I'll make sure to post up results when I try it out. For $11 I figured it would be worth a shot...
 
If all you care about is getting into that range (but note that I usually advocate 5.4 - 5.6 at room temperature) then this meter may be good enough for you but most who track pH have a particular target within that range. I will typically shoot for 5.45, for example. Obviously, with 0.1 resolution I'll get a reading of either 5.4 or 5.5 and have no way of telling where I am in that range. If I add some acid in an attempt to correct pH and it changes 0.04 I'll see either no change or a change of 0.1 in the reading. This does not let me determine the ∆pH/mL acid buffering of the mash so I cannot calculate the correct acid addition. etc.

Upon looking at the link again I see that this meter actually has a resolution of 0.01 but an accuracy of 0.1. This is even worse. For $11 you can't expect a very good electrode (a good electrode is generally worth about $200 though some amazingly good ones are now appearing in meters that sell for a little over $100). One would expect to see for an actual pH of 5.50, readings of 5.4, 5.5 or 5.6 and occasionally 5.3 or 5.7. Also I don't think this meter can be calibrated. Can it?
 
What funny timing! I saw this thread shorly after I just ordered this unit from Cole Parmer. Like the OP, my Googling first turned up those $11 units, but my spidey sense started tingling ("How good can they really be for $11?"), and I decided to go for a more "professional" unit. The one I ordered is around $90 - does it look like a decent unit?
 
The one I ordered is around $90 - does it look like a decent unit?

Unfortunately this one is also specced at 0.1 accuracy and 0.1 resolution as well so the same remarks apply to it. Note that if Cole Parmer sells it for $49 you can probably get it for $29 from someone else so it really puts it in the class of the other super cheap. There are some decent meters for a little over $100 (MW-102; Hach Pro +, IOMEGA) and there may be others. Recent improvements in electrode (junction I think) technology have made this possible.
 
Well, it's got to be better than what I'm using now (the little test strips), so I'm optimistic it will at least help me detect when my StarSan has gone bad, and when my sparge runnings pH has risen too high (5.6+ ish?).
 
As long as it doesn't outright break on me, I'm confident that this will suit my immediate needs great. I'll make sure to update once I test it out...
 
I was looking at buying a similar pH meter off of eBay or Amazon for around $10. Sure it may not give me a dead on reading but it's better than not even having a clue of what my pH is now. And especially when I don't have $100 to spend on a pH meter.
 
Technology changes very rapidly these days and while 15 years ago you might have need a $200 meter to do the job, today a $10 meter may be just as accurate. I won't dispute that the more expensive meter is more accurate but is there any real reason to need your mash to be at 5.32768? Getting the mash lower than 6 and higher than 5 will be much better than just shooting in the dark.
 
I got the mw-102 from morebeer a few months ago on sale. Held out buying anything until I could find a good one. Seems pretty accurate. It agrees with bru'n water estimated at least.
 
Technology changes very rapidly these days and while 15 years ago you might have need a $200 meter to do the job, today a $10 meter may be just as accurate. I won't dispute that the more expensive meter is more accurate but is there any real reason to need your mash to be at 5.32768? Getting the mash lower than 6 and higher than 5 will be much better than just shooting in the dark.

Well put
 
I have the Extech PH100. I like it because it has a flat probe head that allows me to measure pH of cheese. It's waterproof. Electrode is replaceable. I use it all the time, for all sorts of stuff. Seems to work great.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00023RYQ8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
31MM1D90S1L.jpg



I calibrate with these standards. Inexpensive, will last a long time.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0063MWYMQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
511Pd-tXqIL.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Technology changes very rapidly these days and while 15 years ago you might have need a $200 meter to do the job, today a $10 meter may be just as accurate.
Not by a long shot. Yes there have been tremendous advances in electrode technology but these allow a stable reading in a $100 meter (vs. $200 for a stable electrode but a few years ago) but not in an $11 meter.

I won't dispute that the more expensive meter is more accurate but is there any real reason to need your mash to be at 5.32768?
Don't be silly (we'll go ahead if you really want to - it just makes you look foolish). Once the electrode is under control (rms stability of 0.01 or 0.02 for, say, a couple of hours) it is the buffers that determine the ultimate accuracy of a pH reading. With a two point calibration at 4 and 7 accuracy of a bit less than 0.02 is possible at mash pH. Yes, there are reasons why one wants better accuracy than is possible (or I should say probable as I have never handled one of these pieces of junk ) and I explained in #4 why a serious brewer needs all the accuracy he can get. Perhaps you should read that.

Getting the mash lower than 6 and higher than 5 will be much better than just shooting in the dark.
If you can't land between 5 and 6 without a pH meter then I don't think much of your skills as a brewer. Even the worst pH prediction spreadsheet will do better than that and they are free. Why throw away $11 on something your instincts and experience should tell you is likely to be garbage? If they can transport it here from China, pay Amazon's markup and sell it for $11 what do you think it costs them to make it? Do you really think it is possible to make a decent meter for $5 even with very cheap Asian labor? Accuracy isn't the only issue here by any means. The thing will probably fail after a couple of months. Think about other products you have obtained from China in this price range.

I've edited this because further research shows that this product can be calibrated (which was not evident from the Amazon web page). I note that rather than using the readily available NIST 7.01 pH technical buffer it uses the NIST 6.86 buffer which you will probably have to get from a lab supply source whereas even some better home brewing suppliers carry the 7.01.
 
This is clearly not for the 10/10ths brewer. The one who obsesses over every minute detail. I judge a brewer by the product he puts out, not the level of detail he puts into the process.

Sounds a bit high and mighty without objective data to back up the claims for requisite precision...
 
This is clearly not for the 10/10ths brewer. The one who obsesses over every minute detail. I judge a brewer by the product he puts out, not the level of detail he puts into the process.
Me too but it's funny how the guys that understand the process and pay attention to the technical details tend to be the ones that produce the best beers. There are exceptions, of course.

Sounds a bit high and mighty without objective data to back up the claims for requisite precision...
Well I usually stick to the Brew Science forum where the readers tend to be more sophisticated WRT to things like pH measurement and when I post to one of the other fora (such as this one) I sometimes forget that. To make good beer requires pretty tight control of pH and if you are making good beer you are controlling pH either implicitly or explicitly. I post things like these criticisms because I hate to see people waste their hard earned money. If a guy can't afford a $100 meter then he can't afford to throw away $11 on a thing that will probably turn into a piece of yellow plastic in a couple of months either. Better, IMO, that he should hang on to the $11, forego 20 pints (@ $5 ea) at his local, make up for that by brewing an extra 20 pints at home and buy one of the meters with which people on HBT have had good stability performance.

As for objective data I can only assure you that were you to undertake precise pH control of your mashes you would be amazed at how much better your beer would be. It happened to me and it has happened to many others. The subjective observation (I don't know how to objectively describe beer quality) is that, in the words of a poster here, 'all the flavors seem brighter'.

Let's try looking at it another way. Those of you advocating the use of the cheapo meters are suggesting that ±0.5 pH is good enough. At target pH of 5.4 that's a bit less than 10%. Typical saccharification temperature is 150 °F. 10% tolerance on that is ± 15°F. Is that good enough for temperature control? I'm the one being silly here as this is definitely apples and oranges and I'm not doing it on the Kelvin scale but I hope the point will come across.
 
What I'm saying is that 0.1 +/- 0.1 pH accuracy is probably way more precise than taste buds. I don't know this as fact, but I'm willing to give it a shot to find out.

If you can prove that a vast majority of the highest rated homebrews REQUIRE 0.01 accuracy across style categories, I'll return my unit and buy another. Otherwise, I'll give this a shot and continue to incrementally improve my process across all areas.

I think this would make a nice exbeeriment... Can you taste .2 difference in pH near the target of, say 5.5?
 
The predictive power Bru'n water is far more accurate than these junk meters.

Usually my predicted mash pH from Bru'n water is well within 0.1 of actual mash pH. Why waste your money?

If you do nothing to monitor and adjust mash ph it will still be in the 5-6 range. Why spend even 1c on something that can tell you this.

I love the results I'm getting on my beers now that I'm spending some time and thought on mash pH every brew. I was happy with my beers before but happier since. Apart from anything else, it adds to the fun in the planning stage.

It's really not hard to do.

$11 for a meter, come on, really? You think it will be a good product?

No data is better than bad data.
 
I disagree with that. That's akin to saying that Brewsmith does well at predicting og/fg so why bother with low end hydrometers.

I'm OK being a data point here. This meter might suck. But if I can get consistent readings with 0.1 pH accuracy I'll be a happy camper. I still use tap water and thus I need baseline numbers to use with software. Lots of seasonal variability from what I understand...
 
When your kid gets their drivers licence, you don't buy them a Lexus, you buy them something cheap. Until they are comfortable with the processes and have a distinct need for something high end, they can get by very well with the old Chevy.
 
I disagree with that. That's akin to saying that Brewsmith does well at predicting og/fg so why bother with low end hydrometers.

I'm OK being a data point here. This meter might suck. But if I can get consistent readings with 0.1 pH accuracy I'll be a happy camper. I still use tap water and thus I need baseline numbers to use with software. Lots of seasonal variability from what I understand...

Sounds like you already had your own answer before asking this question. AJ gave you good reasons on why the meter is crap. I don't know why you posted this thread if you're going to argue against the informed comments.
 
I disagree with that. That's akin to saying that Brewsmith does well at predicting og/fg so why bother with low end hydrometers.

I'm OK being a data point here. This meter might suck. But if I can get consistent readings with 0.1 pH accuracy I'll be a happy camper. I still use tap water and thus I need baseline numbers to use with software. Lots of seasonal variability from what I understand...

No offence, but from what you have written it sounds like you have never used a pH meter before. The "cheap" pH meters in my lower level chem labs varied by a few tenths each reading and they are much better meters than the one you linked to and that's with calibrating them immediately before using them. One way I compensated for this in lab was by taking multiple readings and averaging them. For upper level chem labs like analytical chemistry these meters were useless. For accurate pH measurement I had to use a pH meter with a good electrode and also monitor the temperature.

In all honesty I wouldn't trust an $11 pH meter to get you within a few tenths of the pH reliably. The solutions you need to calibrate and store a pH meter are going to cost more than the meter itself. Why not follow everyone's advice and save the $11 and put it towards a good pH meter? I mean why did you even come here and ask advice in the first place if you weren't going to listen?

Best of luck :mug:
 
No offence, but from what you have written it sounds like you have never used a pH meter before. The "cheap" pH meters in my lower level chem labs varied by a few tenths each reading and they are much better meters than the one you linked to and that's with calibrating them immediately before using them. One way I compensated for this in lab was by taking multiple readings and averaging them. For upper level chem labs like analytical chemistry these meters were useless. For accurate pH measurement I had to use a pH meter with a good electrode and also monitor the temperature.

In all honesty I wouldn't trust an $11 pH meter to get you within a few tenths of the pH reliably. The solutions you need to calibrate and store a pH meter are going to cost more than the meter itself. Why not follow everyone's advice and save the $11 and put it towards a good pH meter? I mean why did you even come here and ask advice in the first place if you weren't going to listen?

Best of luck :mug:

I wouldn't trust the pH meters you use in the lower level chem labs, so why do you even bother? Besides, I hear each of you saying these meters are junk but no one of you have tested them against the "lab" meters. How can you be so sure of yourselves? I suspect you are just blowing smoke since you have spent so much money on a "better" quality meter.
 
The predictive power Bru'n water is far more accurate than these junk meters.

Usually my predicted mash pH from Bru'n water is well within 0.1 of actual mash pH. Why waste your money?

If you do nothing to monitor and adjust mash ph it will still be in the 5-6 range. Why spend even 1c on something that can tell you this.

I love the results I'm getting on my beers now that I'm spending some time and thought on mash pH every brew. I was happy with my beers before but happier since. Apart from anything else, it adds to the fun in the planning stage.

It's really not hard to do.

$11 for a meter, come on, really? You think it will be a good product?

No data is better than bad data.

Tell me that no data is better than bad data when you are lost with no map and no GPS. With that in mind, why do you have a clock when it isn't perfectly accurate. If your clock is off by a half second, that is bad data. No data is better? Explain that to your boss when you are late for the third time that week.
 
I have both from OP's post. The PH meter slips out of calibration easily like with a drop and you do need to store the prob in a solution. make sure you pick up this too : http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BUV7L96/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

NOTE: Look carefully, there is a newer version of the PH meter for the same price (when purchased individually) with higher accuracy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sounds like you already had your own answer before asking this question. AJ gave you good reasons on why the meter is crap. I don't know why you posted this thread if you're going to argue against the informed comments.

What I was looking for was more than categorical dismissal of cheaper meters. See below.

I have both from OP's post. The PH meter slips out of calibration easily like with a drop and you do need to store the prob in a solution. make sure you pick up this too : http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BUV7L96/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

NOTE: Look carefully, there is a newer version of the PH meter for the same price (when purchased individually) with higher accuracy.

Thank you for this input - this is the type of specific input I was looking for. I'll play around with this one for fun until it goes belly up and then decide which meter to get next time. I'm installing a hot tub next week so this will still serve a purpose...

:mug:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Tell me that no data is better than bad data when you are lost with no map and no GPS. With that in mind, why do you have a clock when it isn't perfectly accurate. If your clock is off by a half second, that is bad data. No data is better? Explain that to your boss when you are late for the third time that week.

Fair enough. All very clever stuff there RM-MN

I'll take no map to a map of the wrong area I'm in any day.

I guess I should have been more clear in that my post was relating only to pH of a mash and not every possible subject under the sun. In future you can probably assume that is what most of my posts try to relate to. The topic at hand not every conceivable topic.

No data on a mash pH and I can make a reasoned assumption I am within 5-6 pH range. A very conservative assumption.

No data on a mash pH and using a good online tool I can get a predicted pH to within 0.1 of my actual measured pH in most instances.

Bad data with a crappy meter will not give me this level of accuracy. It is likely to give me data much further from the true pH than a good predictive algorithm will.

So in this instance (remember, I'm taking about measuring mash pH), no data is better than bad data.

This statement is based on my own measures of actual mash pH using my meter and comparing the data with the predicted mash pH from Bru'n water. Granted a small set of figures but a set I find very useful.

I have no dog in this fight, folks are welcome to waste their cash however they so wish. This is info I would have wanted prior to buying a meter. Fortunately i was able to explore the topic here on HBT and elsewhere before pulling the trigger.

Learned from my mistakes in buying other junk over the years.
 
What I'm saying is that 0.1 +/- 0.1 pH accuracy is probably way more precise than taste buds. I don't know this as fact, but I'm willing to give it a shot to find out.
How will you do that with a meter with rms accuracy of 0.1? You won't know with confidence whether your pH measurement of 5.5 represents 5.4, 5.5 or 5.6 or even, really 5.3 or 5.7. An 0.3 or even 0.2 change in pH (from 5.7 to 5.5, for example) is enough to make a profound difference in the quality of the beer produced - enough to turn on or off those 'bright flavors'.

If you can prove that a vast majority of the highest rated homebrews REQUIRE 0.01 accuracy across style categories,
It's not incumbent on me to prove anything to anyone. I'll offer what I (and others) know and if you are too foolish to accept what you are told by those more knowledgeable than you its to your detriment and no concern to me.

Can you prove that a vast majority of the highest rated homebrews REQUIRE 5 °F temperature accuracy across style categories?'

I'll return my unit and buy another.
You made an $11 mistake which could have been avoided had you looked before you leapt rather than afterwards. It's not a big deal. We've all made mistakes of that magnitude and greater. Keep the thing and see what it will do for you or, more likely, teach you about $11 Chinese knock-offs.
Otherwise, I'll give this a shot and continue to incrementally improve my process across all areas.
That isn't likely given the mind set you have demonstrated here.

Can you taste .2 difference in pH near the target of, say 5.5?
Yes. Absolutely. Beers mashed at 5.7 are dull/flat in flavor compared to ones mashed at 5.5.
 
Your liberal use of absolutes is a bit dubious to me. I'm not saying that this pH meter will absolutely do the trick, but it might and I'll go ahead and post up the results to provide some quantitative information instead of vague absolutes.

I don't yet know how slight changes in pH affect the final product, but I'm well on my way to finding out (going from no pH consideration to controlling within 0.1).

This forum spans the spectrum of homebrewers, from extract kits in HD buckets to pro-level closed system multi-vessel all grain + distilled water/mineral additions. At the end of the day, we've seen numerous ABSOLUTE TRUTH's dismissed by simple experimentation. I'm not above this facet of human nature - when I put a ton of effort into what I perceive as an improvement, my taste buds WANT to believe it's true.

I'm still using tap water + campden tablets. My goal with this cheap meter is to control pH to within 0.1 accuracy. Using control buffer solutions will let me know if I'm able to do that or not, and how reliably I'm able to do that. Right now my beer is pretty darn good, but I know there's still a lot left on the table. I want to see if there is a jump in quality from no conscious pH control, to 0.1 pH control.

The next meter I buy will be a ~$100 unit just because I tend to like things with "gold plating". I'm an engineer and I love spending money on top tier stuff, I just don't have time to research/construct my end-goal RO system yet so I bought this toy to play around with. I hope that my first batches with "loose" and "tight" pH control will educate me as to the perceptible differences. I don't want to preach gold plating at every novice brewer without having that mid-level experience, personally.

We'll see...
 
I wouldn't trust the pH meters you use in the lower level chem labs, so why do you even bother? Besides, I hear each of you saying these meters are junk but no one of you have tested them against the "lab" meters. How can you be so sure of yourselves?
How can you be so sure I haven't tested them against lab meters?

I suspect you are just blowing smoke since you have spent so much money on a "better" quality meter.
I wouldn't do that to my fellow brewers. The goal here is to set the record straight.

Now that you have had a little time to consider how it is you can be so sure that I haven't tested against lab meters I'll point out that it isn't necessary. A recently calibrated meter, cheapo or costing $1000 will read 7.00 in 7.00 buffer at the appropriate temperature (and assuming the cheapo has an 0.01 resolution display). The problem with the cheap meters is that they don't stay there if you leave them in the calibrating buffer. They wander all over the place. Thus to evaluate an $11 meter all I need is the meter, a thermometer (if the meter doesn't have one built in) and a buffer. I then run the stability test described in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256 and derive the accuracy number from its data. That post has sample data from a good $125 meter and other posts in the thread have data from other good meters.

So every time I check a cheapie (and I have done this for friends) I do the stability check and the results are dismal but I don't have to break out a $1000 meter to compare it against. The stability test tells me all I need to know. Reliability (how long you have it in service before it bricks itself) is another matter. Who knows about this meter. It may be the holy grail of cheap pH meters. If OP chooses to do the stability test he'll know soon enough. Of course if I were selling these things and they performed as well as the Hach or Milwaukee meters at $100 I'd raise the price on them.
 
WTH happened here? Holy cow.

To the OP, $11 is cheap, give it a whirl, do a stability test over time and temp. Let us know how it went. It's a cheap experiment. If it doesn't work out for you, check out the one I linked above. It's got 3-point calibration, automatically recognizes the cal standards, ATC, easy to clean / made for food, replaceable electrode head.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top