New mash system ideas ?

I know of two types of common mash systems.

HERMS circulates wort collected from the mash through a heat exchanger located in the hot water tank.

RIMS circulates wort collected from the mash through a loop that has an electric heating element in it.

The problem with both of these systems is that they circulate hot wort, thus making it prone to aeration. Also the fact that they circulate wort means that extra sparge water is needed, making for a thinner mash.

Another issue is the rate at which heat can be added. The recirculation rate is typically fairly low due to flow limits of wort through the bed. The most heat that can be added to the mash is heating the wort from its present temp to near boiling and then add it back to the mash.

There are also other issues.

In the RIMS system, one has to watch that the heating element doesn't burn the wort or burn out.

In the HERMS system the water in the hot water tank is at the wrong temp to properly heat the mash. This typically occurs at the end of the mash. Ideally the mash would be heated to 168F to stop all enzyme activity. In order to do this in a rapid manner, the temp in the hot water tank should be much greater than the mash temp so the rate of heat transfer is fast. However, a few minutes after doing the mash out heating, we want the water for sparge purposes, so its temp should be 168F, so we have a bit of a dichotomy. I often ended up heating the water in my hot water tank to near boiling in order to get a rapid rise in my mash temp. But then it is the wrong temp for mashing out.

There is also the issue of what this sort of heating does to the enzymes in the wort. The enzymes work best at mash temperatures. Heating the enzymes in the wort to near boiling probably has some undesirable effect on them.

I'm thinking of building a system that overcomes these issues.

First of all, I would like to computerize the temperature control of the whole system.

For the hot water tank, I am thinking of using an electric heating element in addition to a propane burner. The propane burner will be used to rapidly heat the water close to its desired temp at the start of a brewing session. After that the computer and electric heating element will keep the water at the desired temperatures. 130F for mash in, 168 for sparging, etc.

I'll get to controlling the temperature in the mash in a bit.

Secondly, I would to add heat directly to the mash rather than collect wort and add heat to it. I can think of a number of ways to do this. One could put a large area electric heating element in the mash container. One could put the mash into a microwave. But I am thinking of putting a big copper coil in the mash container and circulating hot water through it.

Now, one could use the hot water tank as the source of the hot water for the coil. But I am thinking that a small dedicated tank would be better. First of all, the smaller the tank the faster one can change the temperature. Secondly, having a separate heating tank means that one could keep it at an optimal temperature for heating the mash instead of fighting to keep it at the sparge temp when we want it higher for heating purposes.

Like the hot water tank, the heating tank will have a computer controlled heating element in it. One can vary the rate of adding heat to the mash by the speed at which the pump circulates hot water through the mash heating coil and the temp of water that is circulated.

I'd have the heating tank below the mash container so that when the set point of the mash is reached, one could reverse the pump and empty all the hot water out of the coil and stop the temperature climb of the mash.

If one ever over heated the mash, one could dump the water in the heating tank and replace it with cold water and circulate that through the mash. But I highly doubt that would be needed.

So the system will have 2 pumps.

One pump will circulate the heating water though the mash coil and back into the heating tank. This can be a high flow pump for high heating rates as we don't have to worry about aerating anything.

The other pump will circulate the wort through the mash in order to clarify it and to assure even temperature throughout the mash bed. I'll probably use a peristaltic pump for this purpose because the flow rate doesn't need to be high and I want zero opportunity for aeration. And I already have one. I found a disturbing amount of wort cavitation as it went though my current pump, even at low pump speeds, even with a control valve downstream of the pump providing backpressure.

The system will have 4 vessels. The hot water tank, mash container and brewing kettle are all as in a normal system except for the fact that the hot water tank will have an electric element added to it and the mash container has the heating coil.

The one additional vessel will be a small volume heating tank with an electric heating element in it. I figure a gallon or so should suffice. I'll probably use a 2000 watt or larger heating element.

Because the heat is added directly to the mash, I'll call this the direct mash heating system DMHS or something like that.

The advantages of this system would be:

1) independently computer controlled hot water tank and mash temps
2) does whatever mash consistency is desired, even thick mashes
3) separate pumps for mash heating and mash recirculation mean that both rates are optimal for their purpose
4) separate vessels for hot water tank and heating tank means the temperatures are optimal for their purposes
5) a small heating tank, large heating element and high flow pump mean that heat can be added to the mash very quickly for step heat changes. The means faster brewing and shorter brewing sessions.
6) no risk of hot wort aeration or wort burning on the heating element. Heat is added without circulating wort, the same as doing it on a stove top, maybe better.
7) the temperature of the grains can be raised to mash in temp before the water is added !
8) wort is still circulated to clarify it.

So, has anyone built a system like this ? Any comments, suggestions or feedback ?

Thanks.

One wouldn't have to use the wort recirculation pump. One could capture the wort that drains through the bed in a measuring cup or similar container and pour it back over the bed. The optimal rate of wort movement through the bed for non heating purposes, ie to prevent temperature stratification and for clarifying is probably pretty low. Without the recirculation pump the system would be more like the traditional stop top mashing system, only the heat source is inside the mash vessel.

To keep from channeling into the mash tun when sparging you will have to have the heating element away from the grains basicly under a "false bottom". Putting some ss drilled sheet metal around the heating element. Also you would need to recirculate the mash all the time or the heating element would heat the water right by the element and not the whole mash.

The heating element goes in the heating tank, not in the mash vessel. Maybe I need to draw a diagram...

Lets say I used a 10 gallon Gott drink cooler. What if I put 20 or 30 feet of 3/8" copper tube throughout the mash to do the heating ? Like having the heating element right in the mash. The heated water goes through that coil and heats the mass. Kind of like an immersion cooler cools the wort after the boil, except we are heating the mash, during the mash.

I am thinking it would be nice to heat the mash, not the wort. I want to get away from heating the wort to heat the mash because then you are back to heating it a lot to get fast temp rises and circulating it fast. I want to circulate real slow but yet heat fast.

Am I wrong to want to do this ?

What about steam injection?

brewman ! said:

The heating element goes in the heating tank, not in the mash vessel. Maybe I need to draw a diagram...

Lets say I used a 10 gallon Gott drink cooler. What if I put 20 or 30 feet of 3/8" copper tube throughout the mash to do the heating ? Like having the heating element right in the mash. The heated water goes through that coil and heats the mass. Kind of like an immersion cooler cools the wort after the boil, except we are heating the mash, during the mash.

I am thinking it would be nice to heat the mash, not the wort. I want to get away from heating the wort to heat the mash because then you are back to heating it a lot to get fast temp rises and circulating it fast. I want to circulate real slow but yet heat fast.

Am I wrong to want to do this ?

Click to expand...

What you are describing is a heating element just not an electric one. The problem with just putting the coil in the mash is that you will get alot of channeling when sparging. If you move the immersion chiller up and down when chilling it cools alot faster, the same is true when heating too, you need to move something to get your heat transfer fast. You might heat the grains and wort right around the coil but not through out the mash.

What you are describing is a heating element just not an electric one.

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Yes. But the heating element is in the mash, not just for the wort. If I could use an electric one, I would, btw. But it would have to be very low intensity, no more that 20F hotter than the mash itself. Lots and lots of surface area.

The problem with just putting the coil in the mash is that you will get alot of channeling when sparging.

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If the coils are spread out from each other, wort should be free to move around with no problems. Say the dia of the coil was 1foot, so 3 feet of coil to a turn, 20 feet = 6 turns or so. Could make the turns offset too. or different diameters.

If you move the immersion chiller up and down when chilling it cools alot faster, the same is true when heating too, you need to move something to get your heat transfer fast. You might heat the grains and wort right around the coil but not through out the mash.

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There might be some of that effect. Remember that the wort is still circulating, so heat should move around with that, preventing hot spots.

Surface area will help to. Area = dia x length = 3/8 pi x 20 feet = 282 in^2, nearly 2 square feet. 30 feet would be 3 square feet. One should be able to make it so the max distance from any grain to a heating coil is 3 inches, by sizing the diameter of the coil right.

The problem with steam injection is that it adds more water to the mash and I suspect that really hot temps kill enzymes. Enzymes are fussy critters. I want something gentle.

Here is a diagram.

http://www.pbase.com/me2001/image/71473205

The other idea I have to to use a microwave. Somehow put a temp sensor in the mash, inside the microwave. Whenever it gets cool, give it a shot. Would still need to recirc too.

1 bushel of barley weighs 48 pounds. (I grew up on a farm... we had a combine that would harvest 800 or 1000 bushels of malting barley in an hour...)

1 bushel is 1.24 ft^3. So barley weighs 38.7 pounds per cubic foot. 10 pounds of grains would take a little over 1/4 cubic foot. You'd have to add some volume for the water. 1 cubic foot is 28 litres or 6.42 gallons.

The reason I bring this up is that microwaves are rated for size by their volume. Here is a 1.8 cubic foot microwave.
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/prod...mbinations&pid=02276772000&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

Most microwaves have a turntable. One could measure the temp of the mash with an infrared thermometer and attach a spoon to the inside of the microwave to stir the mash as the container turns. To mash out, the container could be moved outside the microwave and sparged with 170F water.

Mashing is really just cooking at precise temperatures, right ?

One wouldn't have to measure the temp of the mash inside the microwave. One could measure the temp of the wort as its circulated outside the microwave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven

Has anyone measured how much volume the grist takes for say 10 pounds of grains ?

BTW: the magnetron in the microwave has only one power setting, full on. To get lower powers, they just turn it on and off different amounts.

Hmmm....

I guess that this would work, but if you have a low flow rate for the recirculation pump you may have uneven heating of the mash. The wort that happens to run down beside the coils will get warmer than the wort that runs down the sides or in the middle. Maybe concentrical coils (like the track of a record player would be better).

I'm also thinking about a heated mash tun for my brewery upgrade, but so far I'm leaning towards a design that has a heating element under the pot and used a motorized stirrer to continuously stir the mash.

Kai

I'm reading about microwaves. The microwave case itself is just a steel shell, called a Faraday cage. One could take the microwave element (feed horn and oscillator) and mount it to an insulated Sanke keg and heat the mash that way. Circulate a bit to prevent hot spots, maybe stir.

The more I think about this the more I like it. One could heat the grains prior to infusing. It shouldn't take long with a 1KW microwave gun to heat a mash from 130 to 158 and then to 168.

heat = weight x Cp x dTemp = 15 pounds x 1 btu/lb/F x 28F = 420 btu. 1 KW = 3412 btu/hour. It would take the 1KW microwave gun about 7.5 minutes to accomplish that temp rise. That assumes all of that heat goes to the grist and none is lost out the mash tun. One could also wrap the mash tun in an electric blanket to add more power to the mash.

Diagram of a possible microwave masher.

One would have to have a safety lockout switch on the microwave gun to shut it off if the lid was ever lifted off the vessel.

What do you think ?

http://www.pbase.com/me2001/image/71493892

This guy built the exact hot water heat exchange system I am speaking of except that he pumps the wort through the hot water heater tank instead of pumping the hot water through the mash vessel.

I think I am going to build my system like his.

http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/RIMS/



"I decided against the classic HERMS system because I wanted to be independent of the HLT - I want to start recirculating and regulating the temperature long before the HLT is anywhere near the mash temperature. Since I principally brew 10 gallon batches, electric control over the mash meant serious power if I wanted to do step infusions (I do) - about 4500 Watts would be needed. I, therefore, also decided against a RIMS system because when the wort is in direct contact with a high power heating element, the possibility of scorching the wort is a serious concern."

What about a double boiler?

If a stainless vessel is used as a MLT, would it be worthwhile to construct another metal vessel on the outside, fill the void with water, then apply a burner to the bottom?... basically a crude jacketed tank is what I'm thinking.

Would this prevent scorching of the wort?

A double boiler is an interesting idea. I'd like to put heat right into the mash vessel, but I don't want to scorch the wort. The best I've seen thus far is to use the dedicated heating tank and run the circulating wort through a heat exchanger coil in it. Whereas most RIMS systems are limited to 1KW or so, these heating tank systems can have 4.5KW. It makes for rapid temp changes.

The thing about putting 4.5 KW into the mash vessel is that is needs lots of surface area so the element temp stays low and doesn't burn the wort. With the dedicated heater tank, the element temp on the 4.5 KW element might be pretty high. But the water temp that surrounds the heat exchange coil will be less than boiling and in fact typically be only a few degrees above the mash bed temp.

After reading your latest post I starting thinking. I've got a 3500W heating element in my RIMS systems and I've recently seen at the big box down the street a 4500W heating element that is twice as long as the current element but the 4.5kW element is folded in half. I'm thinking that the added surface area would be of great benefit. I'm going to swing by tonight and pick it up. Thanks for idea. Jeffrey

I kinda liked my double boiler idea, but it would be a PITA to construct for 20 gallon batches. SO... here's my next idea:

What about using my newly procured Therminator? After all, it is a "heat exchanger." Why not use it as a dual purpose heat exchanger? Run hot water through (not boiling, but hot enough to keep mash temp), and run wort through the other side? I realize I'd need two pumps, but its an idea.

What do you think?

I would of course then use it to chill.

After reading your latest post I starting thinking.

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We are putting too much effort into this. Time for a homebrew. Wait, I'm out ! Darn. Grumble, grumble...

I've got a 3500W heating element in my RIMS systems and I've recently seen at the big box down the street a 4500W heating element that is twice as long as the current element but the 4.5kW element is folded in half. I'm thinking that the added surface area would be of great benefit. I'm going to swing by tonight and pick it up. Thanks for idea.

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I've been playing around with numbers and talking to the owner of the heated water system. First of all, no offense, but I am totally against the element touching the wort directly. I like having a layer of water between the element and the wort. I like the heated water systems with a high rate of wort flow and quite a bit of copper so that that the wort temp never goes above about 180 when circulating. Enzymes start to die at temps above that, maybe not even that.

I really like the double boiler idea. I'd love to move the heat source right into the mash vessel, but it would have to be double boiled, like you say. It would take quite a bit of surface area to move 4.5KW of heat, about 3+ ft^2 with standard copper.

What about using my newly procured Therminator? After all, it is a "heat exchanger." Why not use it as a dual purpose heat exchanger? Run hot water through (not boiling, but hot enough to keep mash temp), and run wort through the other side? I realize I'd need two pumps, but its an idea.

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That would work, except like you say you need 2 pumps and you still need the source of hot water.

Once you have the hot water tank setup, it only takes a length of copper tubing to be the heat exchanger. I drew up a sketch last night. I'll post it later.

Edit: here it is http://www.pbase.com/me2001/image/71641116

There is some nice stuff out there.

Here is a nice, simple HERMs system. He did the same thing I am going to do. The second cooler is his heater water. I think this idea is catching on. I like how there is no excess plumbing or anything, just connect up the hoses and go.

http://www.djlarrylive.com/index.html

I love how he used the small cooler as the heater water. He doesn't need anywhere near 50 feet of tubing in there, especially if he would add a stirrer.

I watched a show last night on the history channel that showed the setup of how AB does their mashing. Basically they start with 100deg water in the tun then have a heat exchanger coil in the tun to bring the mash up to temp. the second part would be the circulation within tun.
So lets go with this. around the edge of your tun you would have 20-30 ft of copper tubing connected to an external boiler. the good thing about this is that a heat exchanger will only warm the water up to just below the temperature of the boiler. This to me would be ideal because then you can use that same water to sparge.

But this leaves the issue of hot spots within the tun. This could be solved by a motorized stirrer designed to move the grist from the edge to the center of the tun. of course this all disturbs the grain bed so a good filter would be in order on the drain side too.

I really recommend watching this program. I dont see it in their up comming line up but they do sell the dvd. or one may ask if anyone has tivo'd it lately..

Modern Marvels: Brewing

MadWeezel said:

But this leaves the issue of hot spots within the tun. This could be solved by a motorized stirrer designed to move the grist from the edge to the center of the tun. of course this all disturbs the grain bed so a good filter would be in order on the drain side too.

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Yes you will need a stirrer and that's what I plan to have for my mash tun. Why the worry about the grain bed during mashing. You can always set it before you lauter.

Kai

Here is a guy that has direct heat via an element in his 10 gallon mash vessel and he has a mixer !
http://home.swbell.net/bufkin/sparging.htm

After adding the stirrer I realized it would be much more efficient to use direct heat than the heat exchanger. It would also eliminate the need for recirculation to change the mash temp. In theory the desired temperature could be reached much faster and more evenly throughout the mash. Also with the stirrer going scorching would not be a problem.
On 2-21-2004 I added a 2000 watt 120VAC element to the TUN and brewed a batch a couple of days later. I saw no signs of scorching and the wort tasted great. It raised the temp of my mash from 150º to 156º in less than 4 minutes. I achieved a 170º mashout in ~6 minutes
Since this is no longer a HERMS I now have to find a new name for this type of brewery. See the IHOP tab for details.

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First of all, the heat transfer in a HERMs system is pretty efficient, provided you have the water moving past the heat exchange coil. With still water, all bets are off.

I don't see any pictures of the element. Usually they mean water heater element. They have a very high heat density (watts/in^2). There are lots of heating elements with lower watts/in^2 than a water heater element. So if he didn't scorch his wort with that, maybe there is hope for directly applying heat in the mash vessel. It would be a lot simpler for one thing. And stirring the bed would even out the temp distribution fairly well.

But that about oxidation from all that stirring. He is stirring at 60 RPM ! He really has wort and grain circulation going on in there ! Its more like the wort is being pumped than stirred !