another noob question - bottling from kegs

This is what I want to do:

1) Keg my brew in 5 gal cornies.

2) force carbonate at room temperature (73 F) and remove from CO2

3) let condition for 4 to 6 weeks at room temp.

4) hook up CO2 periodically and fill sterilized bottles with beer gun at room temp and put bottles in fridge or cooler and carry to parties. Disconnect CO2 when I am finished bottling.

I think that it would be much easier to keg and then just keep a case or so of clean bottles on hand and just bottle an hour or so and put on ice before I start a drinking session.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Should I condition in keg and then force carbonate later, remember..... I have no kegerator at this time so keg beer will always be at room temp. A kegerator will come later.

I would bottle cold. It will foam more at room temp. Everything else is fine, but you will need more CO2 pressure to carbonate at room temperature, closer to 40 lbs instead of the normal 12.

Actually, if you're conditioning at room temperature anyway, it would be easiest (and cheaper), to prime the keg with corn sugar or DME, just like for bottling. You'll only need co2 then to push the beer out to serve.

But still, as Brewsmith said, when you go to bottle, warm carbonated beer into warm bottles will have major foaming issues. And I'm not sure how taking warm carbonated beer, putting it into bottles, capping and then chilling them will affect the carbonation levels. I know that co2 more readily dissolves into a cold solution, so I'm thinking that might be an issue. Someone more intelligent than me can advise better on that, though.

I fill growlers now for parties, and that is great. I wish I would have started kegging years ago!

Consider getting an old refrigerator you can find them cheap or free. Check out craigs list or Freecycle.

Another thing to consider is getting an Ice cube cooler and just taking the whole cornie and cooler when you travel. I've done that a couple of times and it's easy and fast. Some people cut a hole in the cooler's top for the cornie to stick thur, some make a new top out of foam insulation. I just leave the top up.

Another thing to consider is making a jocky box where the beer passes thur a metal coil that is immersed in ice, chilling the beer as it passes thur.

agforest, did you follow the plan that you had in your original post? How did it go and what adjustments did you/ should you make?

I want to do the same thing and have been trying for awhile to find out if this can be successfully done. For me, I want to drink out of the bottle while outdoors and do not want the yeast in the bottom of the bottle. That is my goal. How do I get there without putting the keg in the frig? My keg equipment will be here Monday, and I am trying to get a plan together.

YooperBrew, if we naturally carb in the keg instead of using co2, I assume filling the first bottle would be like filling a first glass....a little yeasty/cloudy?

If I force carb instead of natural, do I need to kill the yeast and rack again before kegging to get it clearer?

Anyone have any specific psi levels based on having done this, or is around 40 psi a place to start?

Although the beer is at room temperature, will chilled bottles help with the foaming issue? Will longer hose help? Will keeping the keg in the basement (65+/-) prior to bottling help?

I have been trying to find these things out on my own for a couple of months, and put this on another thread a week ago. I didn't get any responses there, so removed it and am trying it here. My beer is in the secondary and is ready, my co2 and regulator will be here Monday, and my keg is clean. I just need some direction!

Thanks, all, and have a good weekend.

431brew said:

I want to do the same thing and have been trying for awhile to find out if this can be successfully done. For me, I want to drink out of the bottle while outdoors and do not want the yeast in the bottom of the bottle. That is my goal. How do I get there without putting the keg in the frig?

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I would suspect that warm->warm wont' work very well. Hopefully others will comment, but the vast majority of us store kegs cold and keep them pressurized 24x7. Used fridges are too cheap ($0-50) to hassle with warm beer.

431brew said:

YooperBrew, if we naturally carb in the keg instead of using co2, I assume filling the first bottle would be like filling a first glass....a little yeasty/cloudy?

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The first few will be. Pour them into a glass for inspection, and start bottling when clear.

431brew said:

If I force carb instead of natural, do I need to kill the yeast and rack again before kegging to get it clearer?

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No need to kill it, but you could re-rack if you wanted. Be careful of oxidation issues.

431brew said:

Anyone have any specific psi levels based on having done this, or is around 40 psi a place to start?

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Sorry, not a clue. I would not start at 40psi, but more like 12-15 @ 3 weeks and go from there.

Hey 431brew,

If you are trying to carbonate at room temp, i think you should consult a carbonation table like the one seen HERE
That will tell you how many volumes of c02 you will need to put in your beer, and what pressure to carbonate at for a given temperature. It seems like you will need to carb at 30-40psi. Also, i wouldn't recommend force carbonating (e.g. raising the pressure even higher to get it done quicker) as that pressure is already pretty high and i dont know the max pressure that you should put on a corney keg (although its probably not that low).

Im pretty sure you will lose more co2 during the transition to bottles if it is at room temp, but it still may turn out well. I would say at least chill the bottles before transferring to them. If you decide to go thru with it let us know how it went.

By the way, i havent done what you are suggesting before, so im mostly assuming from what ive learned.

Good luck.

Fett327 said:

30-40psi. Also, i wouldn't recommend force carbonating (e.g. raising the pressure even higher to get it done quicker) as that pressure is already pretty high and i dont know the max pressure that you should put on a corney keg (although its probably not that low).

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Most cornies relief valves are set at 130psi. And a 2 liter plastic soda bottle ruptures at 100-120psi.

FWIW, I've got root beer in soda bottles right now at 35psi.

Thanks for the helpful comments, pldoolittle and Fett327. I think the foaming issue can be worked out eventually, and I don't care if it takes a little more gas if I can accomplish my goal. The part that I am mainly concerned with is what happens once it is carbed and bottled at room temperature, and then chilled. I am green at this so not sure if the bottled beer would be flat after chilled, or worse, explode. Or maybe nothing would happen...like any other beer or cola that you buy off the shelf and then chill. Certainly, someone here has tried this!

It's worth a shot. I'd probably consider this if I didn't have a fridge to put the corney in. But, maybe a few bags of ice and chilling the bottles before hand would help, if possible.

431brew said:

The part that I am mainly concerned with is what happens once it is carbed and bottled at room temperature, and then chilled. I am green at this so not sure if the bottled beer would be flat after chilled, or worse, explode. Or maybe nothing would happen...like any other beer or cola that you buy off the shelf and then chill. Certainly, someone here has tried this!

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Practically speaking, nothing will happen.

At an given temperature and pressure, the liquid will dissolve a certain (fixed) amount of gas. When you cap the bottle the system must remain at equilibrium (by definition). As the temperature rises, some gas attempts to bubble out of solution, this raises the bottle pressure, which in turn causes more gas to dissolve back into solution. As you lower the temperature, more gas is dissolved into solution, which lowers the pressure in the bottle, which causes more gas to bubble out of solution.

So while there may technically be small changes in carbonation, practically there is no effect.

pldoolittle said:

Practically speaking, nothing will happen.

At an given temperature and pressure, the liquid will dissolve a certain (fixed) amount of gas. When you cap the bottle the system must remain at equilibrium (by definition). As the temperature rises, some gas attempts to bubble out of solution, this raises the bottle pressure, which in turn causes more gas to dissolve back into solution. As you lower the temperature, more gas is dissolved into solution, which lowers the pressure in the bottle, which causes more gas to bubble out of solution.

So while there may technically be small changes in carbonation, practically there is no effect.

Click to expand...

pldoolittle said:

Practically speaking, nothing will happen.

At an given temperature and pressure, the liquid will dissolve a certain (fixed) amount of gas. When you cap the bottle the system must remain at equilibrium (by definition). As the temperature rises, some gas attempts to bubble out of solution, this raises the bottle pressure, which in turn causes more gas to dissolve back into solution. As you lower the temperature, more gas is dissolved into solution, which lowers the pressure in the bottle, which causes more gas to bubble out of solution.

So while there may technically be small changes in carbonation, practically there is no effect.

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Thanks for the explanation, pldoolittle. It seemed to me like "something" (flat beer or bottle bombs) would happen, but I understand what you are saying. There are changes, but small enough that there is virtually no effect.

So I would then use the chart posted earlier to determine the co2 required for room temperature (around 38-40 psi at 73-75 degrees). Once I establish that and get the keg carbonated, I can then follow the process outlined in the "No stinking beer gun..." thread to get the beer from the keg to the bottles.

I realize a frig is cheap; it is not about that. I just want to bottle clean beer that I can take to the field with me without bringing along a cup (or keg and dispensing system!). I want to pop a top and drink!

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

431brew said:

Thanks for the explanation, pldoolittle. It seemed to me like "something" (flat beer or bottle bombs) would happen, but I understand what you are saying. There are changes, but small enough that there is virtually no effect.

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Yep. As a demonstration, get a coke bottle and shake the heck out of it. A significant amount of gas will come out of solution. Leave it alone and see how quickly the foam subsides and the gas is reabsorbed. It's not instant, but 20-30 minutes later it's as if you never shook it. And that's an extreme example.

431brew said:

So I would then use the chart posted earlier to determine the co2 required for room temperature (around 38-40 psi at 73-75 degrees). Once I establish that and get the keg carbonated, I can then follow the process outlined in the "No stinking beer gun..." thread to get the beer from the keg to the bottles.

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Yes, carbonate the pressure recommended for the temp at which you will carbonate at. As for the beer gun, I'm unsure it foaming will be a problem as I dispense chilled beer into chilled bottles.

431brew said:

I realize a frig is cheap; it is not about that. I just want to bottle clean beer that I can take to the field with me without bringing along a cup (or keg and dispensing system!). I want to pop a top and drink!

Click to expand...

That's why we all do it and the very reason this thread exists. But when at home I pour from a tap for several reasons. One of which is not filling and cleaning bottles. And without a fridge you will be using bottles at home, even though you have a keg system.

Aside from the advantages of beer on tap, here is my logic relative to the BMBF. Can you use a BMBF at room temperature? Not sure, but it sounds reasonable. Can you use a BMBF at serving temp. Yes. For $50 or less, it wasn't worth the uncertainly and potential hassle. I just stuffed it all into a fridge and fill from there.

pldoolittle said:

Yep. As a demonstration, get a coke bottle and shake the heck out of it. A significant amount of gas will come out of solution. Leave it alone and see how quickly the foam subsides and the gas is reabsorbed. It's not instant, but 20-30 minutes later it's as if you never shook it. And that's an extreme example.

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Good example on this. I have dropped several plastic coke bottles over the years, and letting them sit for awhile always cured them.

pldoolittle said:

That's why we all do it and the very reason this thread exists. But when at home I pour from a tap for several reasons. One of which is not filling and cleaning bottles. And without a fridge you will be using bottles at home, even though you have a keg system.

Aside from the advantages of beer on tap, here is my logic relative to the BMBF. Can you use a BMBF at room temperature? Not sure, but it sounds reasonable. Can you use a BMBF at serving temp. Yes. For $50 or less, it wasn't worth the uncertainly and potential hassle. I just stuffed it all into a fridge and fill from there.

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Good points, and no doubt that you and the others have "been there and done that" with most of the questions that are presented on this site.

As for the uncertainty and potential hassle you mentioned, I have thought of that many times. I do not want to take a chance on ruining the beer that took so long to get to the kegging/bottling phase. I have even thought of making a small test batch of water/beer so that I could see and test cheaply the room temperature and foaming challenges that would be there.

I do like Yooper's suggestion in the earlier post of naturally carbing in the keg and then using the gas to push it out.

Good stuff again....thanks.